Jump to content
GREYGHOST

312 Won't Crank Over????

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, GREYGHOST said:

installed the Black w/red tracer wire on the starter side of the solenoid

I was thinking that but didn't ask it, glad you found it on your own. One other question we should have asked long ago, have you checked the oil level? That low oil level switch will prevent the starter relay from closing.

Does the solenoid have one small terminal or two? If it has two small terminals have you grounded one of them? Be sure the tractor is not in gear; taking a jumper from the battery side of the solenoid to the small terminal that goes to the "S" terminal of the ignition switch should close the solenoid and rotate the starter.  

As @Rob XC700 said, once you have verified the starter turns over it is easiest to work your way back to the ignition switch. Remove the start relay and touch a 12 volt jumper to the relay base where the purple wire connects, this should crank the starter. Now hook up the lead of your DC meter to the relay base where the dark blue wire comes in, with PTO disengaged and clutch depressed then turn the key to start and see if you read 12 volts. If both of these produce the expected results then move the meter probe to the light blue wire on the base to see if you get 12 volts there with clutch depressed, PTO disengaged and key in start. If all of these give you the expected results the relay is not working.

If we don't get the expected results on one or more of these tests let us know and we will continue the diagnostic hunt.

  • Excellent 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks 953, After I get done with some chores the Captain has me doing. I'll get started on that list. As for the oil. When the son in law dropped it off it was way over due for an oil change. So it's been changed and is full, but I guess I could hook up my meter and check for continuity as I drain the oil. I believe it should read open with oil at the correct level, then closed when the oil level is below the set value to trip the switch? He also told me last night that before the engine quit, it was really smoking. So once I get her where she will crank, I might find that I have some engine work. But that I can handle, its this electric that gives me fits. Again Thanks for the help.

Brent

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, GREYGHOST said:

 I believe it should read open with oil at the correct level, then closed when the oil level is below the set value to trip the switch?

Nope the other way around. It should be N/C (normally closed) when oil level is correct. You need 12 volts through the sensor to trip the switching relay.

  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

 This is probably not the problem, but I am a guy who weird stuff happens to, so here goes.. I was having a wiring issue with a motorcycle and finally tested the ign. switch and it tested bad. I R&R'd it and then there were still problems. The brand new aftermarket switch was bad, and that is not  something you would normally test for. I sure could have saved some time if i tested mine.  In today's world with global sourcing, you get what you get.

 

 I got a C-141 not long ago with very similar starting problems to yours. It was stored inside and the switch appeared sound. !2 volts to the coil and all that. I did the lay the spark plug on the block and saw a spark or two.I then put it back in and hooked up a spark indicator and only got one flash at the start of cranking and one flash when I stopped cranking :think: I clipped the volt meter to the coil, and with the key on it was 12 volts , but while cranking, it was zero volts.   Replaced switch and got her to fire and run

 

 You might as well check your switch with a continuity tester to make sure With the switch at ign, you should have power at all but the start position. With the switch at start, you should have power at all the lugs. Some switches might shut down the lighting circuit,during starting, but that could vary

Edited by ohiofarmer
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, ohiofarmer said:

check your switch with a continuity tester to make sure

Volt meter under load is better. If there is a problem in a switch it could check good with the light amperage of a meter but fail due to internal resistance when supplying a load.

Edited by 953 nut
  • Excellent 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

OK, I'm the last person wanting to give the wrong diagnosis here. The service bulletin and the wiring diagram contradict each other.

The bulletin states that the oil switch is normally open when the oil level is correct/full.

The wiring diagram shows it as N/C!!! "Starter Motor Circuit" (ignition switch in "start")

If the oil switch isn't closed then the Switching Relay won't receive 12v and energize.

Am I missing something here?

 

Tractor 1987-1988 312-8 Wiring Detailed _492-4509.pdf

Edited by Rob XC700

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the writer of the service bulletin is wrong. When an electrical device is identified as Normally Open that switching device will be open when setting on the shelf with no external energy or pressure applied. As @Rob XC700 pointed out the oil switch must be closed to energize the start relay and it would be ridiculous to only be able to start the engine if the oil was drained. The switch is a float type switch and must be normally open (setting on the shelf with no pressure applied) so that it will close when oil is added allowing the start relay to be energized to start the engine.                       

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK....what year is this tractor? I was going by the previously posted wiring diagram. It was for an 87-88. This would change everything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I Love trouble shooting Electrical issues, i get that job weekly, try it in a wiring harness with hundreds of colored wires on a Kenworth or Peterbilt, but i find them & fix them, Dont forget your seat safety switch one of you told another member months ago, or maybe this mite work :deadhorse: LOL, Another Capture the moment by Big Red Fred

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1503965241455-614075956.jpg.b35b1d4ed97eb2deb7116939b43537a8.jpg

On 8/23/2017 at 3:35 PM, 953 nut said:

I was thinking that but didn't ask it, glad you found it on your own. One other question we should have asked long ago, have you checked the oil level? That low oil level switch will prevent the starter relay from closing.

Does the solenoid have one small terminal or two? If it has two small terminals have you grounded one of them? Be sure the tractor is not in gear; taking a jumper from the battery side of the solenoid to the small terminal that goes to the "S" terminal of the ignition switch should close the solenoid and rotate the starter.  

As @Rob XC700 said, once you have verified the starter turns over it is easiest to work your way back to the ignition switch. Remove the start relay and touch a 12 volt jumper to the relay base where the purple wire connects, this should crank the starter. Now hook up the lead of your DC meter to the relay base where the dark blue wire comes in, with PTO disengaged and clutch depressed then turn the key to start and see if you read 12 volts. If both of these produce the expected results then move the meter probe to the light blue wire on the base to see if you get 12 volts there with clutch depressed, PTO disengaged and key in start. If all of these give you the expected results the relay is not working.

If we don't get the expected results on one or more of these tests let us know and we will continue the diagnostic hunt.

Thanks Rob, my replacement solenoid has 4(four) terminals. 2 ea 1/4", 2 ea spade terminals. 1 large terminal to the starter, 1 large terminal to the Positive terminal of the battery, 1 spade connection to the relay. Leaving 1 spade connection empty. Is that the one your describing? If so, that answers the question of why there was a short wire included with the New Solenoid. If this is it, after ALL this time. Well, guess I will have learned a little more in site to the Ol Girl. Thanks 

Brent

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, GREYGHOST said:

1 spade connection empty. Is that the one your describing? If so, that answers the question of why there was a short wire included with the New Solenoid

:woohoo:   That is the ticket! The coil on the solenoid requires a ground on one of the small spade terminals, either one is fine.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

:woohoo:   That is the ticket! The coil on the solenoid requires a ground on one of the small spade terminals, either one is fine.

Ok, I just learned something new here. I was a Ford Technician. A Ford solenoid would not ground that extra terminal. It would be marked with an "I" and run to the coil to give it 12v on start up. I never would have even considered it was a ground. I just assumed all solenoids would ground through the mounting bracket. Thanks 953 nut for the lesson. "You can teach an old dog new tricks".  Fingers crossed that fixes it.

 

On another note, my horse started every time this weekend. Apparently it' confirmed mine was a bad ground from the bracket to the chassis. Funny if this fixes GREYGHOST...we had the same problem!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

953, and the rest of the crew. THANKS. Sorta looks like, Naw. No looking like. It was that darn little ground wire All along. Made another one up, cause the New replacement one that came with the New Solenoid walked off. Turned the key and the Electrical System is fixed. Wouldn't stay running, STARTS for a bit, but LOTS of WHITE SMOKE. You won't believe this, but if any of you have the Good Fortune of having a Meathead of a Son in Law. You might understand. T/S ing the no fuel, I started at the gas tank, its almost full but smells stale. Pulled the bowl off the carb, no fuel. Cranked it over with the fuel line off from the pump to carb. No fuel? Back to the fuel line, blew air thru it. Gas smells really strange. Called the son in law. Where did you buy the gas for the tractor. Oh, I got it out of that 5 gal Jerry can in the shed. Oh really, that isn't gas. It's Stodard Solvent! So he then asks, is that why it was Smoking so much and hard to Start. So, I'm done for today, doctors take my day tomorrow. So stay tuned, this will be interesting I'm sure. I think I'm going to tell him its time for him to Buy his own mower?

Brent

  • Like 1
  • Excellent 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Glad to hear that was it. No more Electrical trouble shooting. At least you know what the fuel problem is as well.

Sounds like you bought his first tractor and he didn't know how to look after it. Now it's time for him to buy his own and see what it costs to not look after it. :-)

Probably burnt out the old solenoid trying to get it started.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Rob XC700 said:

A Ford solenoid would not ground that extra terminal. It would be marked with an "I" and run to the coil to give it 12v on start up.

Good tip to pass along.    :thanks:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd be very interested to see what Stoddard solvent does internally to an engine - I've seen a lot of not so genius moves , but that's a new one on me here . Worst one I've seen over the years was a college kid with a brand new Honda econo car - he put 3 gallons of Lantern Fuel in it . Now , being a fuel-injected Honda , it ran , and ran like a machine possessed - right up until it melted the pistons , valves and cylinder head . I've never seen a 4 cylinder Japanese engine run hot enough fuel to turn an overhead cam the coolest purple you've ever seen , sort of like a Harley drag bike's exhaust pipes ....

 

He did finally admit it seemed like it had a V8 in it suddenly , I can only imagine how it ran . All the result of him being low on fuel and a Casey's gas station out of gas - the fuel truck was horribly late getting there .

 

We washed our hands of it after the engine inspection and trailered the car to the nearest dealership . Honda actually warrantied the dumb thing - they said the fuel shouldn't have hurt it , wow . I highly doubt any car company would do that these days , his parents were very grateful and their son learned a really valuable lesson .

 

I think the bonehead son in law may be in line to pay for a rebuild , maybe it will be a lesson learned .

 

Sarge

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×