Jump to content
GREYGHOST

312 Won't Crank Over????

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

Hi guys, I found your forum while researching my 312's problem. So I'm a "NEWBEE". I purchased my girl back in 1982 or 84. Memory issues, so don't shoot me. Anyway she's had Excellent care up until I let my "Meathead" Son in law borrow her 6 years ago. Anyway, he called me and said the tractor won't start. This was back in May I think. So Monday he brings her over and drops her off. After a few hours of TLC I cleaned most of those 6 years of dirt off her. My troubleshooting revealed a dead battery, and busted ignition switch. So both have been R & R. All battery terminals have been cleaned, ground connection cleaned, 15amp fuse R &R. My problem is I have no voltage to the lights, ignition switch doesn't engage the starter. But by jumping the solenoid the starter will engage. WhenI I test my safety switches using the test toggle switch, Nothing lights. He also has misplaced ALL of the paperwork, wiring diagrams, and manuals. So I'm looking for a wiring diagram or some ideas. As a retired Aircraft Mechanic I'm ashamedof to even post this. But, I've got myself turning circles and my brain has frozzen. Anyway the specs. Wheel Horse 312-8 ID# 2112K805, Kohler 12HP Model F12S, Spec # 471527, S/N 180700t943. I know beyond a doubt that I'm over thinking this and missed something small. 

Brent

 

 

Edited by GREYGHOST
Speeling
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

As far as starting, from what you described, what ii is left doesn't sound major. Probably something as simple as a failed crimp, untightened battery connection or bad ground. .

Edited by Thisguyisnew
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1st thing to check is the PTO disengaged?

Then there might be an inline fuse.

Is there power from the battery to the ignition switch?

There should be (or was) safety switches on the clutch, the seat and the PTO.

Check them.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Thisguyisnew said:

As far as starting, from what you described, what ii is left doesn't sound major. Probably something as simple as a failed crimp, untightened battery connection or bad ground. .

 

5 minutes ago, N3PUY said:

1st thing to check is the PTO disengaged?

Then there might be an inline fuse.

Is there power from the battery to the ignition switch?

There should be (or was) safety switches on the clutch, the seat and the PTO.

Check them.

 

:text-yeahthat: The PTO disengaged is first thing I check when kid says "it don't work..."... Of course, don't ask ME how I knew that before the first time he did it!!! :hide:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

If you checked fuses and lights don't work, my guess would be a corroded harness connection or failed crimped connection somewhere

Edited by Thisguyisnew
  • Excellent 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Everyone, guess I need to go back over everything. I've missed something somewhere.. Gary, thanks for the research info. The wiring diagrams will surely help. Thanks again. I keep you All posted on the progress.

Brent

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Not that I am brilliant at diagnosing problems, but i had a recent problem that 'acted ' like a safety switch.  

 

 

 One of the wires was loose from the ammeter.    

 

 Another time the clutch got out of adjustment and the safety switch did not work even though the switch was OK

  • Like 2
  • Excellent 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:WRS:      Sorry I didn't get into this thread sooner. Is the 25 Amp fuse good, and is the fuse holder clean of any corrosion? It is common to all the functions that are giving you a problem.

  • Excellent 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny I was spending time attempting to help someone on the other thread we had going and I still hadn't found he time to address my own issue. Start with, I replaced the battery as the one in it was toast when I got the tractor.

Turn the key and get the solid relay hit but starter doesn't turn over. Hit it a few more times and away it goes. This method has worked for the short time I've owned it, but every time it happens, I tell myself, this is not going to start one of these times and it won't be in the garage, so I better fix it.

So I checked a few things today. No 12 volts at the starter when it does it. Of course during diagnosis it eventually starts. Jumped across the solenoid and starts every time. Being intermittent, not ready to call out the solenoid yet. I'm going to clean some connections and grounds on Sunday and I will report back with my findings. It may help.

  • Excellent 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've got a 312 with the same "click no start" issue. Tracked it down to a bad solenoid. Gonna replace it today. Unfortunately, Toro used the cheap lawn tractor solenoid and they just don't last like the automotive type.

  • Excellent 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

My problem is not even a click, no lights. I've cleaned the grounds. Today I guess I need to ohm All of the wires. I think my Meat Head Son in law has put a Curse on her.

I'm also going go start with the ignition switch. Last night I noticed that ebay has several vendors selling ignition wiring harness's and switches. Must be a horse problem there somewhere.

Brent

Edited by GREYGHOST

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you have 12 volts to the "B" terminal of the ignition switch?  Did you check the 25 amp fuse?

  • Excellent 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GREYGHOST, I believe I fixed my problem.  I removed the solenoid to make sure it was grounding to the chassis. There's actually a wire running from the bolt holding the solenoid to the chassis. I cleaned the eyelet and the solenoid bracket. When removing the solenoid bolts, there are nuts on the back. Unless you have real small hands, you will need to remove the cover plate that it's fastened to. Approximately 6 bolts and the nut by the PTO rod. Yes, I was a little annoyed when I realized I had to remove all that to put it back together. Air ratchet in hand, wasn't as bad as it looked. 

All back together and it turned over right away...good sign....but engine not starting...oh no....now what? No spark! Good news, cranked over several more times and worked every time, just won't run. goofed around for 20 minutes or so.....

Looked at my wiring diagram and read "PTO switch"..... "light bulb moment"..... Now don't laugh too hard, SylvanLakeWH did warn us. I had flipped the PTO handle when I removed the nut under the rod. Disengaged the PTO and voila, started. Started it a half dozen more times this afternoon and no problems, so it was a bad ground to the solenoid bracket.

  • Like 2
  • Excellent 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Grey Ghost, I've spent a month trying to solve the same problem on a new-to-me C-161, and today I did. Loooong story short, because they were badly corroded, I first replaced the ignition and solenoid, without any change, I replaced the in-line fuse, even though it tested OK. After messing with everything I could think of,  I set out to re-check all connections and grounds.  I decided to jumper around the in-line fuse holder, even though it looked fine before and after initially cleaning it and sanding the contact ends . She fired right up. Hope that gives you some ideas for out of the box testing.

 

oldredrider: , I got a three post solenoid at my local NAPA, 24 bucks. They wanted to see what I was trying to replace, went in the back and came out with a winner.

  • Excellent 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the feedback guys. I have tried all of your ideas except for Phil's. At the present time I have ALL safety switches jumpered and I'm using a 12vdc power supply instead of the battery, and I still have Zero Volts at the B terminal. The 25a fuse is New and ohms good also. I'm almost to the point of building my own electrical harness. 

  • Sad 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you have 12 volts to and from the 25 amp fuse holder with the fuse inserted? May want to put a temporary jumper from the battery "+" to the "B" terminal on the ignition switch to eliminate the potential of an open some place in the red wire.

  • Like 1
  • Excellent 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

953, No I don't have 12v at the fuse. I don't understand how, with replacing 2 solenoid. That I haven't been able to get that 12v from the solenoid to the relay then to the ignition switch, lights, & test lights? I'm going go research the wiring diagram that I've been using. Its supposed to be for a 1987-1988, 312-8. But, its showing that there is 2, 25a fuses in the harness. I can only find one. My 15a & 25a fuses are good. I have been T/S with All of the safety switches jumpered. But, as I said. I started going backwards through my steps and testing each switch. I also found that the clutch safety switch is bad. But that shouldn't be stopping the voltage from the solenoid to the relay with it being jumped? I don't think?? Or could it??

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, GREYGHOST said:

953, No I don't have 12v at the fuse. I don't understand how, with replacing 2 solenoid. That I haven't been able to get that 12v from the solenoid to the relay then to the ignition switch, lights, & test lights? I'm going go research the wiring diagram that I've been using. Its supposed to be for a 1987-1988, 312-8. But, its showing that there is 2, 25a fuses in the harness. I can only find one. My 15a & 25a fuses are good. I have been T/S with All of the safety switches jumpered. But, as I said. I started going backwards through my steps and testing each switch. I also found that the clutch safety switch is bad. But that shouldn't be stopping the voltage from the solenoid to the relay with it being jumped? I don't think?? Or could it??

First, make sure you have bypassed the clutch switch if you believe its bad, as it will effect the starting circuit.

 

I might be on to something here. I've been studying the wiring diagram as well as the wiring harness "parts" diagram. I don't believe there are 2, 25 amp fuses. There's only 1 but the wiring diagram shows 2 because they are the same fuse. There's only 1 fuse in the harness diagram (someone jump in here if I'm wrong). The other confusing part is the harness indicates 2 wires going into the 25 amp fuse holder on the HOT side. My 414-8 shares the same wiring harness parts diagram and wiring diagram in those areas. I looked at my tractor and it only has 1 wire on the Hot side of the 25 amp fuse. Not sure why the pars picture shows 2. On the tractor, it runs directly from the HOT side of your solenoid.

 

Here's what I'm getting at here...you should have battery power at that side of your solenoid because your battery positive goes directly there. You say you don't have 12v at the fuse. You have too, it's only a short little wire from the positive side of the solenoid to the fuse. If you don't have 12v at the fuse jump a temporary wire directly to the fuse. Do NOT use any part of the existing wire from the solenoid to the fuse as you may have a bad crimp. Once you have 12 volts on BOTH sides of the fuse, see if the problem is fixed.

 

If the problem still exists, do as 953 nut has suggested and jump battery "+" to the "B" terminal on the ignition switch and report back. If it operates, 953 nut is correct and you most likely have an open between the switch and the fuse, or a bad ignition switch.

  • Like 1
  • Excellent 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rob, Its time to turn in now. But I'll try all that tomorrow. Thanks.

Brent

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Rob XC700 said:

You say you don't have 12v at the fuse. You have too, IF the wire, wiring terminals and the fuse holder are good! 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 953 nut said:

 

That's my point :). Thanks for clarifying so I'm not confusing anyone. Until there's 12 volts there no use moving forward.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

 

 

Just figured out how to a picture, I think. If so you'll see I really am TS my tractor. 953, Rob, and the rest of you guys won't believe this. But, then again you will. I feel like a real IDIOT. ALL this time, and dismantling in the TS. After Rob & 953s last reply. I came out this morning, and sure enough. Some Idiot (ONE GUESS HERE) had installed the Black w/red tracer wire on the starter side of the solenoid. When I reversedthe the red tracer to the battery side. I now at least have power to the switch and lights. BUT, She still won't crank. Not even a click. So is this now telling me that I have an open or short in a wire going to a safety switch? I would suspect so, But, since I missed that wire on the solenoid. I'll just say this, I'm just not sure anymore?? Oh, and THANKS AGAIN for ALL Your Help & Patients with this Ol Trap Shooter.

Brent

 

P_20170823_112432.jpg

Edited by GREYGHOST
My STUPIDITY???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LOL, no worries, we've all done stuff like that. Remember I forgot to disengage my PTO and it led to more T/S than necessary on Sunday.

Over one hurdle and on to the next.

Do you now have power at the battery wire at the B terminal of the ignition switch? If not do as 953 nut suggested and run battery "+" to the "B" terminal on the ignition switch and report back.

If you do, do you have power at the "S" terminal with the ignition switch in the start position? If you do then just start following down the line to each component on the wiring diagram and see if you have power. Sometimes more beneficial to go backwards from the solenoid depending how hard it is to get at each component.

Let us know what you find.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×