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Bahmi

312-8 electrical woes

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It never fails to excite me when common sense is used as a part of troubleshooting. Simple plain comon sense with a splash of preventative maintenance. 

The more threads that I read the more I am starting to understand the love people here have for a well designed machine. There are the regulars here that I believe respond to everything that is posted everyone asking for help. I am a person without patience and highly critical and I hope people will take me with a grain of salt at times when I get wound up. Having said that I do freely express my discust with those wanting only to question every answer given by those with many hours on their hour meters.

 

Unfortunately, this thread hasn't gone to well to this point. I hope that my comments weren't responsible for its down fall.  Its just that I would sincerely like to see the information that has been given to be at least tried before it is questioned by those possibly not having any mechanical experience ot aptitude.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 8/12/2017 at 6:24 AM, 6bg6ga said:

It never fails to excite me when common sense is used as a part of troubleshooting. Simple plain comon sense with a splash of preventative maintenance. 

The more threads that I read the more I am starting to understand the love people here have for a well designed machine. There are the regulars here that I believe respond to everything that is posted everyone asking for help. I am a person without patience and highly critical and I hope people will take me with a grain of salt at times when I get wound up. Having said that I do freely express my discust with those wanting only to question every answer given by those with many hours on their hour meters.

 

Unfortunately, this thread hasn't gone to well to this point. I hope that my comments weren't responsible for its down fall.  Its just that I would sincerely like to see the information that has been given to be at least tried before it is questioned by those possibly not having any mechanical experience ot aptitude.

 

Yes, this place is full of guys who love to help others. I try to have respect for their time by searching old threads.  What some seem not to realize is that it may take a half hour or so to write and then edit a post. That kind of effort sometimes is not appreciated. Other times it may appear to be so and some other life issue got in the way..

 

 i have seen some new members post their identical problem on this forum and other forums at the same time as in the scattergun approach. I will not accuse the OP of this, just saying it happens sometimes. I made a statement I regretted a few weeks ago, and the guy i offended took the time to explain a few things in private. I apologized to him privately and publicly as well. Now we are buddies:greetings-clappingyellow:

 

 Now 6, i am gonna ask you something---  Have you bought your first Wheel horse as of yet???   It will make you a happier person than ever before and when i bought mine, my feet even started smelling better. Wheel horses usually get cheaper in the fall and winter, and the magic time to buy stuff for me seems to be between late fall and the time income tax refunds are issued.

 

Anyway, i hope the OP comes back. If not then we can all wish him well and hope his tractor runs again.

Edited by ohiofarmer
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Well, I have a 616Z  Zero turn mower. Most here would not consider that a Wheel Horse.  Not much to be found in my neck of the woods wheel horse wise. When I retire and we move to AZ I plan to hunt one down. I'm serously thinking about chrome plating the tractor just for fun and will call it the Chrome Horse. As for my feet... well the dogs like them.

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On ‎7‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 4:16 AM, Bahmi said:

What are the real chances I have a "bad cable"? It's multi-filament, tough, wiry, and is not under mechanical stress. I'd also assume that IF the cable burned out between solenoid and starter terminal that there would be a melted spot along that cable between these 2 points.

I am going to answer this post even though I think the OP is gone. LOL

NO there may not be a melted spot and the chances are the wire (cable) is good, but there is always that possibility the wire (cable) is bad.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Tim.0 said:

I am going to answer this post even though I think the OP is gone. LOL

NO there may not be a melted spot and the chances are the wire (cable) is good, but there is always that possibility the wire (cable) is bad.

Story here.. Many years ago when I was young I had an old chevy pick up truck. One day it refused to start. First thing I checked was battery voltage followed by battery voltage with my meter ground on the chassis. I had no voltage. The cable looked like new. Being it was an old chevy and the cables were a bit longer than they probably needed to be I cut back the cable end near the battery and revealed a mess under the insulation. I simply cut it back several inches and used a universal battery cable end rechecked it and I was back in business. So, things can look better than they actually are. A resistance check If I had done one would have revealed the problem with a high resistance reading.

 

Like it has been mentioned many times before to check and or tighten ground and power connections. Ground cables do need to come in contact with virgin metal also.

 

A VOM (volt , ohm, meter ) is a necessity for any troubleshooting work if one wants to be proficient and speedy at it.  Many times a simple resistance check on the cable will reveal if there is indeed a problem or if its problem free and one needs to move on and check another portion of the circuit.  When I was young I learned to draw out circuits in order to learn how they work and to improve my mental abilities in problem solving. Many times since then I have had to rely on myself to draw out complicated circuits simply because the designer or parent company wouldn't part with a printed schematic.

 

As I mentioned the VOM meter is a helpful tool that will provide one the ability to check resistance, voltage, current draw in some of the better larger meters, such things as diode tests/functions, and transistor junction and beta testing just to name a few.

Edited by 6bg6ga
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Posted (edited)

:text-yeahthat:

Well, since we are talking tools to check things, I have a story or two. I have a little honda CB100 and the little guy would run about five miles and shut down. After cooling down some, it was start stop, rinse and repeat.  i took it to a retired farmer who also wrenched part time at the auto sales in town.

 

 We started the bike and he used a timing light and noted that it would make spark, but the light was not bright at all. A mounting screw for the points was barely touching the cover and when it heated a bit, the result was a full short. We re- mounted and adjusted the base of the points spring, and all was good.

A lot of guys check for spark by laying the plug on the engine block, but on the occasion the spark is weak, the plug will not fire at all once it is screwed into the block. it actually takes MORE energy to light the plug once inserted into the pressure and gasoline vapor than it does outside the block. [Source=Dansmc.com, a motorcyle repair site]. For that reason, I own a cheap Harbor Freight timing light and it has saved me tons of time. It is easy to see even one little miss with this light and even to judge how strong the spark is.Also, you can know whether or not it is sparking while cranking the engine

 

 Just a few weeks ago, the timing light caught my C-141 lying to me about an ignition problem. the VOM showed 12 volts present at the coil, but the thing would not fire. The timing light showed one spark event when I hit the starter and another when i ended cranking the engine. Further testing with the VOM showed that the coil voltage went away upon cranking. We used a temporary hot lead to the coil and it started right up. It was a bad switch.

 

 These machines are very simple as compared to auto engines, but sometimes there is a huge benefit with a small investment in tools

Edited by ohiofarmer
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Well folks I to wish the OP would return with some results. I'm still working my 312s Electrical issue, which sounds very similar to the OPs. 

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my story about a wire

I had similar with a 8n tractor. The wire went bad at the starter. The wire which goes into metal terminal, inside the terminal the wire was bad. Over heated the wire with excessive cranking was the start of it I think and slowly just got worse from there over a period of time. To look at the wire would of never known. I was checking cleaning connections is how I found the problem (the tractor would not turn over) and at the time years ago I just used test lights or continuity checker, but now I use a multi meter. Multi meter are easy to use and learn should be basic tool in any mechanics or do it ur self backyard mechanic bag of tricks

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3 hours ago, GREYGHOST said:

Well folks I to wish the OP would return with some results. I'm still working my 312s Electrical issue, which sounds very similar to the OPs. 

 So post it up here. Who knows, it might help the OP

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6 hours ago, GREYGHOST said:

wish the OP would return with some results.

I think the OP went away, seems like all he wanted to do was contradict the advice he was given. Start a new thread with your symptoms and what has been done to this point and help will be on the way.

 

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Hi All,

As for using a VOM meter, you will notice I had said in my posts to check for 12volts. Not to use a test light. I didn't want to go too far with checking resistance as not everyone knows how to use a VOM meter for resistance and continuity. Most important tool necessary when diagnosing electrical problems. Both my sons have them in their tool boxes curtesy of Santa.  

A couple stories here...

- When I was working on the bench, Ford had a run of bad battery cables that would show up after a few years. After I left the trade I had one go in my fairly new F150. Acted like a bad starter, but it was the end of the cable at the starter. I've also seen many, where a cable looks perfectly fine, but the cable has lost contact inside the lead connector.

- A few weeks ago I was stopping at a job site on the way to work to fix a door lock and only had a few hand tools with me. Checked the handicap door operator that had been installed the day before by another person. An emergency light wasn't working. Great, no VOM meter with me to diagnose the problem. Felt lost without it. Checked the connections, fixed a loose wire, but didn't fix the problem. Had to call the installer back to figure out what was wrong.

Can't underestimate the need for the correct tools. Let's be honest, a VOM meter isn't expensive. Every tool box should have one. You don't need a $500 "Fluke" to diagnose most electrical problems. If you don't know how to use it, your buddy helping you might. So have one on hand and he will teach you.

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20 hours ago, ohiofarmer said:

:text-yeahthat:

Well, since we are talking tools to check things, I have a story or two. I have a little honda CB100 and the little guy would run about five miles and shut down. After cooling down some, it was start stop, rinse and repeat.  i took it to a retired farmer who also wrenched part time at the auto sales in town.

 

 We started the bike and he used a timing light and noted that it would make spark, but the light was not bright at all. A mounting screw for the points was barely touching the cover and when it heated a bit, the result was a full short. We re- mounted and adjusted the base of the points spring, and all was good.

A lot of guys check for spark by laying the plug on the engine block, but on the occasion the spark is weak, the plug will not fire at all once it is screwed into the block. it actually takes MORE energy to light the plug once inserted into the pressure and gasoline vapor than it does outside the block. [Source=Dansmc.com, a motorcyle repair site]. For that reason, I own a cheap Harbor Freight timing light and it has saved me tons of time. It is easy to see even one little miss with this light and even to judge how strong the spark is.Also, you can know whether or not it is sparking while cranking the engine

 

 Just a few weeks ago, the timing light caught my C-141 lying to me about an ignition problem. the VOM showed 12 volts present at the coil, but the thing would not fire. The timing light showed one spark event when I hit the starter and another when i ended cranking the engine. Further testing with the VOM showed that the coil voltage went away upon cranking. We used a temporary hot lead to the coil and it started right up. It was a bad switch.

 

 These machines are very simple as compared to auto engines, but sometimes there is a huge benefit with a small investment in tools

Yes, I have used a timing light the same way as well. Used to move it from ignition wire to ignition wire to check for consistent spark on all cylinders. I also have a spark tester, They work well because you can adjust the gap that it needs to jump. You don't need to remove the spark plug either.

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8 hours ago, 953 nut said:

I think the OP went away, seems like all he wanted to do was contradict the advice he was given. Start a new thread with your symptoms and what has been done to this point and help will be on the way.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Rob XC700 said:

Hi All,

As for using a VOM meter, you will notice I had said in my posts to check for 12volts. Not to use a test light. I didn't want to go too far with checking resistance as not everyone knows how to use a VOM meter for resistance and continuity. Most important tool necessary when diagnosing electrical problems. Both my sons have them in their tool boxes curtesy of Santa.  

A couple stories here...

- When I was working on the bench, Ford had a run of bad battery cables that would show up after a few years. After I left the trade I had one go in my fairly new F150. Acted like a bad starter, but it was the end of the cable at the starter. I've also seen many, where a cable looks perfectly fine, but the cable has lost contact inside the lead connector.

- A few weeks ago I was stopping at a job site on the way to work to fix a door lock and only had a few hand tools with me. Checked the handicap door operator that had been installed the day before by another person. An emergency light wasn't working. Great, no VOM meter with me to diagnose the problem. Felt lost without it. Checked the connections, fixed a loose wire, but didn't fix the problem. Had to call the installer back to figure out what was wrong.

Can't underestimate the need for the correct tools. Let's be honest, a VOM meter isn't expensive. Every tool box should have one. You don't need a $500 "Fluke" to diagnose most electrical problems. If you don't know how to use it, your buddy helping you might. So have one on hand and he will teach you.

 

Couldn't agree more here. Any VOM meter even a $5 harbor freight meter is a useful piece of gear to have in your tool box or on your bench. Sure, I have some very expensive bench meters for my electronics repair work that have to be calibrated each and every year. This extent isn't needed to repair a tractor or diagnose a electrical problem on one of these jewels. So far we have mentioned spark checkers, VOM's, test lights, as some of the necessary pieces of diagnostic equipment that will make your life easier and happier.

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A $5 Harbor Freight meter!? Heck 6, they give them away quite often. They even work :lol:

Since this thread has already hit a sandbar I figured it couldn't hurt to add this. I used a high end Beckman for many, many years. I purchased it in the 80's and proved to be a reliable tank but it did finally give up the ghost a couple years ago. Now being retired and not using a meter as much I purchased a $30 brown thingy from Lowes. With just occasional use I never seemed to have issues with it. For some reason shortly before we moved from Florida I checked the voltage on our house down there. It read 156/285. I knew that wasn't right but I was so involved in the home search and multiple trips to Indiana I just put it away and forgot about it. Our new place here in Indiana has some issues with the electrical and one day I pulled it out only to find the voltage here was reading in the same vicinity. Ain't no way!! I checked to see if it was still in warranty and discovered it was about a month out. A $30 meter isn't worth much effort but I decided to send the manufacturer an email. I even inquired about getting it calibrated. They said there was no calibration procedure for that model and told me to return it to Lowes for replacement even though it was just out of warranty. I did just that and had the email in hand to show them. What a runaround. At that time I just had a temporary Indiana driver license as i waited for the permanent one in the mail when they asked for my ID. They said that was no good. I explained to them that my temp license was good enough to get me on an airplane so why wasn't it good here. Nope. Frustrated i just said something about giving my future business to Home Depot and walked out. I sent another email to the manufacturer and they said that was ridiculous and immediately sent me a shipping label to send it back to them. Whew! long story to get to the short point. While I was waiting for the replacement I still needed a meter to check what could be a serious issue with the house that concerned me. They I saw that HF dad a coupon for a free digital meter. What the heck, I went and got one. I guess my point is that even a cheapo can do the job for you. I now have a new $30 cheapy that works right but the free HF cheapo helped me out when the first cheapy failed me. :)

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You need another one or three Bob say the word and they'll be in a box and on the way!  ..I've got multi's I never even seen. Some ain't much but they still work fine.  Couple of them even have thermocouples for calibrating the Mrs stove! I've even got an old Simpson 360 analog. :)

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I'll bet that Simpson still works fine too. You're right about having more than one. I had several and they were quality meters but even those don't last forever. One by one they started dying. The Southwire from Lowes was the first meter I've purchased in about 30 years. We'll see how long the replacement works. It's one thing to just not work but another to lie to me. At least now I have the freebie from HF to back it up.:)

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On 8/17/2017 at 6:46 AM, 953 nut said:

I think the OP went away, seems like all he wanted to do was contradict the advice he was given. Start a new thread with your symptoms and what has been done to this point and help will be on the way.

 

Thanks Richard, I appreciate ALL of the Feedback given from Everyone. I have posted a thread "312 Won't Crank over," which really isn't quite true. Because if I jump across the solenoid, the starter does engage. But a New solenoid, switch, and 2 batteries so far hasn't gained any promises. I have been away from this project for a few days. So tomorrow providing I don't get side tracked. I'm going to take another look at the Ol Girl, with fresh eyes, hopefully a clear head, and start all over. I will keep you all updated as to any findings or progress. Like I've said, I'm sure that I'm missing something simple. "KISS"  Is what is usually said in situations like this.

Thanks Again

Brent

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1 hour ago, GREYGHOST said:

"312 Won't Crank over,"

I posted in the other thread, check the 25 amp fuse, it is common to all the functions that are not working.

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