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"D"- Man

18 Automatic Solenoid Metal Mounting Bracket Need Grounded?

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Posted (edited)

 Does the metal mounting bracket on the solenoid {part #8658} need grounded?  This is attached to the frame via (2) 1/4-20 bolts.  I assume that this is the means for the 12 volt DC current to return to ground.  I had the frame powder coated and consequently the paint is not conducive.

Edited by "D"- Man

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Yes it needs to be grounded

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Most of the garden tractor type have two small spade terminals, one gets the hot wire from the switch and the other can have a wire routed to a less conspicuous location for grounding.

24_1_8b4a639c-070b-4ef1-8b2b-ff0170ea73ee_1024x1024.jpg?v=1480351872

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Posted (edited)

You may find that type of lawn mower solenoid won't hold up for very long. They can't handle the amperage draw on the big Kohler starters.

I recommend you go with the automotive type and run a ground wire from one of the mounting bolts

Edited by oldredrider
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Posted (edited)

I know the original solenoid was a 3 prong; however, I purchased a 4 prong #435-016 in hopes I could make it work.  It has 2 large terminals for switching from the B+ to the starter, and 2 smaller marked "S" and "I" I assume that the "S" is for starting and "I" could be left unattached.  I plan to use a dedicated ground wire.

Edited by "D"- Man
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This type would be the best to use.

 

In the operation think of a coil inside the solenoid. Your feeding that coil a control voltage from the ignition switch. Every coil needs both a power and a ground in order to function. So, to answer the ground question it is a YES.

Ford%204-Terminal%20Solenoid%20Wiring.jpg

I would suggest a piece of either battery cable or a mesh type grounding strap going straight to battery ground instead of just chassis ground.

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Just because the frame is powder coated doesn't mean it can't be used as a ground. It's no different than if you had painted it. Just remove a bit of the paint (coating) where the mounting bolts come through and add a star washer under the nut. Use your multimeter to make sure that you have a good ground connection. 

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Never said you couldn't ground it to the frame.  I do find problems with trying to grind a single or for that matter two single points where one could put a star washer between the frame/sheet metal and the solenoid. Reason?  Simple.  Dirt and grease can get behind it possible rendering what was once a good ground to something that now has resistance. If you consider "ohms law" it will tell you the slightest resistance with either the ground or the hot cable will reduce your starting/running capabilities.

 

Pointed out that its generally better to NEVER rely on a frame ground verses a point to point cable ground and or the combination of both. Considering the problems members have had with grounding issues the KISS principal is probably the best offering. If there is a possibility of removing a possible future problem its probably smarter to consider the option.

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Wheel Horse relied on frame grounds ever since they were first made. My 1961 701 has ONLY metal to metal grounding and 53 years later when I restored it, the original grounds were still good. I mentioned that you should grind and place a star washer only because new paint jobs are done differently than the way Wheel Horse did them. They assembled unprimed, and then painted. The exception in my opinion was the '78 and later models that used a cradle mounted engine. Due to the rubber isolation, engine grounding was done via a cable from cradle to frame, and lots of electrical problems in those models can be traced to that cable.

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19 hours ago, rmaynard said:

Wheel Horse relied on frame grounds ever since they were first made. My 1961 701 has ONLY metal to metal grounding and 53 years later when I restored it, the original grounds were still good. I mentioned that you should grind and place a star washer only because new paint jobs are done differently than the way Wheel Horse did them. They assembled unprimed, and then painted. The exception in my opinion was the '78 and later models that used a cradle mounted engine. Due to the rubber isolation, engine grounding was done via a cable from cradle to frame, and lots of electrical problems in those models can be traced to that cable.

 

 

From your post I gather the attitude of "Well, we've always done it that way."  Sir, times change. If the "1960's type grounding " was the best companies like General Motors and Ford would have jumped on the band wagon and would be using it yet today. Just looked under the Cadillac's hood and well it has several factory installed mesh cable grounds. I pointed out that cable grounding is a good way to go. Using a cable with a frame grounding is a better way to go. Grounding is an important problem that needs to be addressed in probably 80% or more of the electrical problems that arise in the electrical problem section of this forum. Using the star washer type method of grounding IF done correctly may establish a good ground. The problem with a star ground is sooner or later it will either gather moisture around/behind it causing it to rust and or loosen and then where did your ground go? I will point out that NO ground is good until checked with a meter and verified. By the same token NO ground should be considered to be good IF problems arise and must then be re-checked.

 

 

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The old saying goes "when you are up to your waist in alligators, it's difficult to remember that the initial objective was to drain the swamp".

 

In this case, the initial objective was to answer the question "Does the metal mounting bracket on the solenoid {part #8658} need grounded?"

 

We have established that the correct answer is yes.

 

All the other discussion on whether General Motors or Ford did their grounding better is immaterial.

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Actually sir its an attempt to teach those that may benefit from those with actual experience. What you may consider as immaterial may in effect teach those needing to learn proper grounding techniques. The fact that you may not agree with what I posted is absolutely no reason to call it immaterial. Yes, we have established the solenoid needs to be grounded and WE have pointed out the Proper way to ground. Nothing either one of us has posted should be considered as immaterial or irrelevant in nature. The purpose of ANY FORUM is to help and to educate if we possible can.  

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13 hours ago, 6bg6ga said:

General Motors and Ford would have jumped on the band wagon and would be using it yet today. Just looked under the Cadillac's hood and well it has several factory installed mesh cable grounds.

If today's cars were made of metal rather than plastic they wouldn't need all those jumpers!

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Its more of all the computers on todays cars. Its not just engine management anymore.

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Either way is fine. I myself prefer the frame ground and star washer before the nut. I also use conductive silicone, excessive but effective.

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1 minute ago, Oldman said:

Either way is fine. I myself prefer the frame ground and star washer before the nut. I also use conductive silicone, excessive but effective.

 

Your grounding way works. The only thing I'm trying to point out is sooner or later it will either loosen up or get rust formation around the star washer. I've repaired a lot of grounding issues on machinery that used the star washer approach. Just be prepared in the future sometime to re-do your ground or for that matter ANY ground.  Conductive material by the way doesn't hold up when exposed to the elements.

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Yes, one could make sure the area is bare and if in doubt run a cable too, long as it is grounded. I had a similar issue with a regulator and no charge.......

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