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ztnoo

GT 14 Hydraulic Control Valve Problem: Advice Needed

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ztnoo

Major,

Yes, I do have the second valve I bought Thursday at Portland (after running over there two consecutive days), but had a couple of other small projects and "to do list" things to attend to before I delve into the valve issue.

I was very fortunate to be able to pick up one so close by. Karl Stohry from Flat Rock, IN (about 2.25 hours drive for me) had one (and a set of hoses and the cylinder to go with it) which I saw on Wheel Horse Garden Tractors and Parts, https://www.facebook.com/groups/WHGTP/

Since Portland is about a 40 minute drive for me, it was a no brainer: Just go get the damn thing..........NOW.

 

Maybe today and Sunday I can do the analysis and figure out what's going on and how they really function.

As I said in the thread, these valves are simple devices, but without one part in the assembly, they are not going to function properly.

Ultimately I'll figure it out and be able to add to what currently seems to be a very limited fount of information and knowledge about these control valves.

 

Did you wind up going to Portland on Friday, or did the weather scare you away???

 

Edited by ztnoo

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Molon_Labe

I was going to meet up with GLGRUMPY about a blade for the Yard Man but it was already raining here at 0630 Friday morning, figured it best to have another cup of coffee and watch the news and weather, glad I did. Good to hear that you at least have the parts to get the GT-14 functional again. Maybe one of these days you will come across that lost part for the old valve.

Edited by Molon_Labe

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ztnoo
On 5/20/2017 at 9:45 AM, Molon_Labe said:

Maybe one of these days you will come across that lost part for the old valve.

 

Yeah........I kinda have that spooky feeling that will be the case.

Probably basically a case of user error and not being deliberate enough and observant enough in my disassembly.

Edited by ztnoo

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ztnoo

OK folks, I'm back again with some answers.......rather than questions, this time.

Picked up another 8363 valve from another GT 14 at the Portland tractor show last week thanks to Karl Stohry of Flat Rock, IN.

 

Here's what I found out and it was pretty much what I was thinking all along.............I lost a piece in my initial disassembly of my original 8363 control valve.

I'll more or less let the pics do the talking with captions added where needed.

 

When the valve lever is in the neutral position (where it always returns after movement either forward or backward), the round head set screw just protrudes from the body of the valve. See white circled area.

5925d649c9979_IMG_1039aa.jpg.104e2237645e3ba2ee1586a38fc82c13.jpg

 

When the control; lever is pulled back, the screw and a small metal sleeve attached to the end of the spool, move downward out of the valve body.

5925d763460cb_IMG_1067a.thumb.jpg.1a9d10f3966463b2675069ba2f583206.jpg5925d772af9e2_IMG_1068a.thumb.jpg.156540e11438ed54d9637727ad5ac33d.jpg

5925d92b2dd4e_IMG_1070a.thumb.jpg.73d0f8546becfb37d7ecaf4c509147cc.jpg

 

Conversely, when the control lever is pushed forward, the spool and the sleeve/screw move upward into the casting body of the valve. The big spring in the side of the valve casting returns the lever and spool to neutral, regardless of the direction it has been moved.

  5925ea923104c_IMG_1071a.thumb.jpg.3091c11a545f742508dcb7dd24ee6a65.jpg5925daca95ca9_IMG_1072a.thumb.jpg.2b25b0100b308ac306220d3b798a2127.jpg

 

Upon removal of the round head screw, and a slight loosening of the hex allen screw to relieve the ball detent, the metal spacer/sleeve came out of the assembly. As I suspected, this is what I lost previously. Its machined on the upper end to fit into the chamfered end of the spool. The sleeve/spacer has a countersunk area into which the end of the spool fits. It also has a larger diameter shoulder machined into it which serves as a stop for the ball detent in the assembly and prevents the spool from being lower below the ball detent. Note the damaged area on the shoulder of the sleeve/spacer which I believe to be from wear of the detent ball. The last pic in this group shows the flat bottom side of the sleeve spacer which the screw and lock washer rest against on the bottom of the assembly.

5925dd2713bd6_IMG_1073a.jpg.f4dc144881e93245566054431b8c70f8.jpgIMG_1042 a.jpg

5925dda8b0af3_IMG_1076a.jpg.367e35b44b3e27002ee9d966412bd90c.jpg

5925de3db1353_IMG_1075aa.jpg.1f9275cc6ec08541208b26a6890a0e85.jpg

5925ded6a8e18_IMG_1077a.jpg.9450ffc0b297c92fae0192e716b1e1e1.jpg

 

So, in the off season, meaning non-mowing season, i.e. winter, I need to find a skilled machinist to duplicate the sleeve/spacer to restore my original control valve to full working order. The job of this part is to limit movement both up and down of the spool. A very simple part basically with a very simple job. But without it, the valve won't fully function.

Next time Steve needs to mind his P's & Q's a little more closely when disassembling something he has never had apart before. Probably a good example of being in a little too much of a hurry. That generally works against not only me, but probably everyone. Lesson learned the hard way......the way you tend to remember more going forward.

Duh.

5925e35019758_IMG_1080a.thumb.jpg.f931e381c5b4c67981fa72db9b577982.jpg

 

Edited by ztnoo
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wheelhorseman

Steve I'm glad to hear you figured it out and your back up and running thanks for the good information!

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Aldon

Great information and follow up Steve.

 

I'll definitely make use of this thread for reference when I rebuild mine.

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ztnoo

Lowell,

Do you have the capability to reproduce a small part like I need?

I guess it would require a small lathe and the skill to operate it, neither of which I have.

Steve

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wheelhorseman

 I sure do Steve but I'm busy right now so like you said in the non-mowing season get a hold of me.

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ztnoo

thumbup.gif.ec2dd343dda75912050c07d7a33518fa.gif

Lowell that sounds great!!!

Yeah, definitely it would be late fall or winter, for sure.

I assume you would need the example of the part you are duplicating........for accuracy???

Steve

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ztnoo

Many thanks to all who contributed ideas and advice to my hydraulic control valve woes.

You are a great bunch of friends to have!

Kudos!

 

Regards,

Steve

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Molon_Labe

It is so nice to see a thread with closure. All too often the solution to a presented problem, if there is one, is not made known to the forum. Thanks for getting to the bottom of yours Steve and sharing your findings.

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wheelhorseman
6 hours ago, ztnoo said:

thumbup.gif.ec2dd343dda75912050c07d7a33518fa.gif

Lowell that sounds great!!!

Yeah, definitely it would be late fall or winter, for sure.

I assume you would need the example of the part you are duplicating........for accuracy???

Steve

Yes or some good measurements of the :thingy: but we can figure that out later. :handgestures-thumbup: 

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ztnoo

In my hurried quest to discover how to repair a 8363 control valve, how it functioned, and learning the arrangement and disassembly/assembly of parts, as an after thought, I realized I neglected to explain what it took to actually get to the control valve.

As such, I decided an addendum to the thread would be helpful to others, hopefully.

If you are doing a complete restoration of a GT 14, the chore of dealing with an internally mounted part, becomes largely a mute point because of the ease of access you already enjoy. If however you are working on an actively used tractor which you don't have the luxury of dawdling around fixing a severe hydraulic leak in the control valve, your focus becomes "what is the easiest way to go about accessing this part without removing huge numbers of parts for access to the control valve"?

Having been through this dance a few times now, I thought it might be beneficial to describe what I found worked best for me so that others facing similar repairs on their GT 14s could speed up the turn around time removing the valve, installing the new seals, and reinstalling the valve on the tractor. When the grass is growing and you are mowing twice a week, the pressure is on to get the thing repaired because of a very serious hydraulic leak, time is not a luxury you have in abundance.

 

The first thing you will need to do is remove the knobs on the hydro directional lever and the knob on the control lever. You then can can remove the cover plate and plastic instructional/directional plate. This will gain you access to the valve which lies between the C channel sides, and is attached to the right side channel. The cover plate is shown below with mounting points circled in yellow.

592f411c1bbda_IMG_1098a.jpg.cd1aa3739ea8bd43254f8d766e2dab6f.jpg

 

The second part you will have to deal with is the cam plate and idler pulley assembly which is attached to the pivot arm assembly of the mule drive. This apparatus tensions the deck drive belt, but in order to gain access for belt guard removal, you will need to loosen the tensioning nut for the idler pulley enough to allow the drive belt to be pulled to the side once the belt guard mounting bolts have been removed and you are pulling the guard outward. Note the cam plate has been allowed to rotate forward out of the way with the loosening of the belt tensioner.

The guard cannot be removed with the deck drive belt tensioned. The problem area is circled in white below. The second pic show the results of loosening the deck drive belt enough to allow belt guard removal.

592f423ad2fb3_IMG_1088a.jpg.4a0bcef9f7947b1ac5da77e98e949d81.jpg  592f43915409b_IMG_1092a.jpg.0891741dfc29d68195ce802939c055e7.jpg

 

Next you must remove four 1/2" bolts from the side of the belt guard (circled in white), and a 5/8" bolt from the attachment point on the engine block (circled in yellow).

592ff965703d0_IMG_1093a.jpg.5458344c2e64e1e26f3eb023d9648376.jpg

 

This allows reasonable access to the 1/2" bolts (circled in white) mounting the control valve to the tractor on the inside of the C channel frame members. You will likely meet some slight resistance to clearing the back of the electric PTO clutch body, but with some wiggling and some light pressure the belt guard can be pulled past the clutch.

592ffa059933f_IMG_1094a.jpg.4662ddabacd5ebefae498b5a3333e4a5.jpg  592ffa1483626_IMG_1095a.jpg.867105d1d24cdbbd879ad4cb93825e99.jpg

 

At this point, you have gained enough interior (between the C channels) and exterior space (with the belt guard pulled outward) to begin removing the hydraulic hoses from the control valve casting body. I began my loosening the top hose first with a 5/8" wrench, then the left hose (as viewed from the rear of the tractor), thirdly the right hand hose, and lastly the bottom hose. The hoses should be removed from the valve first before removing the mounting bolts which run through the right angle mount. Doing so allows you to gain leverage to loosen the hose connections.......otherwise you'll likely encounter a real knuckle busting session. After the hoses are removed, you can then loosen the mounting bolts running through the right angle mount, and remove the control valve from the tractor for seal servicing.

592ffb2f67ab8_IMG_1096a.jpg.e9590177a845529874d51be28bc855f1.jpg

 

One of the things I had the most difficulty accessing where the nuts on the right angle mounting plate. I really fought those the first time I removed my original control valve. Both sets of nuts interfered with either the removal of the bracket from the C channel, or removal of the valve from the right angle mounting bracket. After removing the control valve and observing the situation more closely, I determined the bolt heads were about half the height of the nuts which mount the valve to the right angle bracket. By reversing that arrangement and placing the thinner headed bolts on the inside of the right angle bracket and the locking nut on the back side securing the valve casting, I was able to gain enough clearance to make installing the mounting bolts and nuts on the other side of the right angle bracket to the tractor much, much easier. The original set up of the bolts are in the pics below circled in white and yellow. Reversing this arrangement will save a lot of frustration.......guaranteed.

592ffe87374b6_IMG_1034a.jpg.91000be2384852065fefb961b65bef05.jpg592ffe949cab5_IMG_1043a.jpg.f7eb0656bd69dbbdb086063bf3097e4b.jpg

 

Lastly, I realized I never showed a complete pic of the spool with the new seals installed. Note the direction of the lip (the largest diameter area) of the seal face inward toward each other and the center of the spool.

IMG_1044.JPG.e5f26495d9044d8c9aeb87f81661277a.JPG

 

Hope all this is helpful to someone out there with a similar problem with a control valve on a GT 14.

 

Steve

Edited by ztnoo
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