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Paul1650

New year needs help with Air Horse

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Paul1650

Recently purchased a 1973 14hp Automatic airhorse like the one in the pic here.   Model is 1-0435. Need it as tug for my airplane. 

 

It won't go in reverse or forward anymore.  Everything looks fine.   The local Toro shop says the transmission has gone and no parts available anymore.   I see it uses a Sundstrand 90-1136.

 

Any ideas on repairs.   I am not in a position to repair myself.  Just. Looking to get replacement or substitute parts/sub assemblies for the local toro shop to effect a repair. 

 

Thank

Paul

 

IMG_1126.PNG

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daveoman1966

I have a RE-BUILT Sundstrand 90-1136 power unit (hyd pump and hyd motor) to bolt right onto your 14hp Auto.  I overhauled this unit last summer and it is ready to go.  You'd only need to buy a new filter and bolt it on.....easy swap for anyone with wrenches.

 HOWEVER.... Red Sq doesn't like me to quote prices in this open forum so you'll need to contact me OUTSIDE of this forum.  

You can contact me via email at:  

daveoman@windstream,.net

 

  

Edited by daveoman1966
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953 nut
31 minutes ago, Paul1650 said:

I see it uses a Sundstrand 90-1136.

:WRS:   That same transaxle was used on a lot of "B" and "C" series tractors, take a look at this list, transmissions are located on the right side.

wheelhorseallyears.pdf

Edited by 953 nut

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Paul1650
40 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

:WRS:   That same transaxle was used on a lot of "B" and "C" series tractors, take a look at this list, transmissions are located on the right side.

wheelhorseallyears.pdf

Thanks very much for this list.   I see the model number for my horse shows it uses a Sundstrand 90-2046.   However my research from toro or even this site I think in the pic below shows a 90-1136.   Is there any differences.  Which should I believe.  I unfortunately cannot find the model number tag on my actual unit.  It has probably been removed because the whole unit has been painted green to look like a John Deere machine.  

IMG_1251.PNG

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C-101plowerpower

do the sundstrands have a push/tow valve? if so check if that is cracked open or not

Edited by C-101plowerpower
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19richie66

Both my c175's had tow valves. Not sure if they all had them in the same location. 

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953 nut
2 hours ago, Paul1650 said:

Is there any differences.

I doubt that there is a significant difference, it could be as simple as a smaller drive pulley or a two groove pulley. I see the same model and year using the 90-1136 and 90-2046. I have used components from an Electro on the hydro of my GT-14 and it works great. If you can find a good operable unit from a similar year :wh: there should be no issues replacing yours. 

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jellyghost

I was blown away that this exists.  i was admiring the TUGS a few weeks ago at the airport.  What wheels are turned by the steering wheel?  

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Paul1650
1 hour ago, jellyghost said:

I was blown away that this exists.  i was admiring the TUGS a few weeks ago at the airport.  What wheels are turned by the steering wheel?  

The small rear wheels turn and also two rams move the articulated rear yellow frame.  One s its on the hood of the engine facing backwards and reverse steals it while backing up to the aircraft nose wheel.   There are some videos on-line showing at work.  

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Blasterdad
21 hours ago, C-101plowerpower said:

do the sundstrands have a push/tow valve? if so check if that is cracked open or not

:text-yeahthat:Agreed, check the tow valve & tranny fluid level, might be as simple as that...

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Paul1650

Thanks for the fault finding suggestions folks but yes I have confirmed oil level and the tow valve is still jammed closed - never touched it through all this.   The hydraulics still work in terms of the steering rams and the lift on the back to cradle the aircraft nose wheel.   Even when I move the forward reverse lever I can hear and feel a bit of a load on the engine but there is no movement.   

 

I read somewhere here about a common problem of keys on transaxles going.  Can anyone enlighten me if that may be the cause? Is there an easy diagnostic to determine if it is hydraulic motor or a transaxle mechanical problem?

 

 

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wh500special

Do the lift and steering systems still work?

 

if they don't work at all, then you may have something as simple as a broken or slipping belt or missing drive key on either the engine or trans pulley.  

 

If if they work, but weakly,  then the drive portion of the transmission is probably worn badly, which is what it sounds like your dealer was telling you.   This is particularly the case if they work strongly when first started, but die out as things warm up.  When worn, there is too much slop in the internal system to allow the charge pump to develop pressure for lifting (700 psi max I think). 

 

There's also a chance that the pressure relief valve for the charge pump (this is also for the lift/steering pressure relief) might be open or malfunctioning. I think a stuck open acceleration valve could do this too, but that would tend to be a directional problem and I doubt you'd lose forward and reverse at the same time.  

 

There are are no new parts available for these things.  But used can be sourced from members here.  There is a hydrostatic transmission repair manual available that shows what's inside and gives troubleshooting steps.   Maybe it's in the manuals section or somebody can get you a copy.  

 

Going on historic statistics, you most likely have excessive wear inside the unit.   That thing is 45 years old so it's not unexpected to have issues.  

 

Hydro unit failure in these transmissions can happen rapidly if dirt gets in or the oil gets low.  There is a lot of tight clearance metal to metal contact in there that requires a clean film of oil to develop pressure.  

 

Its also possible that the little suction strainer inside the transmission either clogged or collapsed.  This would be bad too since it would starve the transmission of oil. 

 

Your fastest bet to get back in the saddle would be to contact davoman about his rebuilt unit.   It's and easy swap that requires little more than removing The fenders to get access to things.   

 

If if you do a swap, you must - unequivocally - clean out the entire transaxle assembly and replace with clean oil (use 10w30).  If you don't a few specks of grit can undo all your work in a hurry. 

 

Your 14 auto uses the very common sundstrand piston-piston unit.   Anything from tractors that look like yours from 1973 to about 1983 will fit.  The differences in part numbers should be related to either having an internal parking pawl (like yours) or and external band type parking brake.  Some will also lack the little springs inside that allow for the charge pump to service a remote lifting circuit lie yours has.  You can improvise or abandon the parking brake or pawl and can swap the springs from the lift circuit of yours into the replacement.  

 

Best of luck!

 

Steve

 

 

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wallfish
14 minutes ago, Paul1650 said:

I read somewhere here about a common problem of keys on transaxles going.  Can anyone enlighten me if that may be the cause? Is there an easy diagnostic to determine if it is hydraulic motor or a transaxle mechanical problem?

If a key is sheared on the axle for the hub, the axle will spin inside the hub. Only takes one side key to shear to stop the motion of the tractor since the differential will supply force to the side that slips.

 

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wh500special

You replied while I was typing, sorry to give the rehash. 

 

The hydraulics working is a good thing!   It means the system internally is allowing some pressure to build on the hydrostatic pump section of the loop. 

 

John's suggestion of looking for a broken key in the hubs is a good one.   Hopefully therein lies the problem.  

 

If this was an "all of a sudden" failure, I'd look to something mechanical having let go.  If it was a deteriorating condition then you can bet you have to dig inside the unit.  

 

Steve

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pfrederi

Actually parts are available for the Sundstrands.  They are NLA from Toro as they sold their stuff to LJ Fluid power.  Sundtrand Hydo units were used by many manufacturers back then so there is still some demand for parts.  They are however pricey

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953 nut
1 hour ago, Paul1650 said:

when I move the forward reverse lever I can hear and feel a bit of a load on the engine but there is no movement.

That is a very good sign, Hub key as others have said,    may be an easy fix  :woohoo:

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Paul1650
1 hour ago, 953 nut said:

That is a very good sign, Hub key as others have said,    may be an easy fix  :woohoo:

Thanks for this Richard.  I will ask the local shop to look into this particular item first.  Is this the woodruff type key I saw on the parts schematic on the axles?  Which part number on the attached picture will the key be on?

 

   

IMG_1252.PNG

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Blasterdad

Slot in the end of the axle 4-21

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wallfish

IMG_1252.thumb.PNG.aa6b3bea594e5f371a4e92cea1028d15.thumb.PNG.f1324bff96f24c2203df8308fcc66000.PNG

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pfrederi

My local Toro dealer recently rebuilt a D200 using parts from LJ fluid power  (and some from me and my pressure gauges),  Your toro place could do the same thing...but it ain't cheap.

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953 nut
On 4/29/2017 at 11:58 AM, Paul1650 said:

The local Toro shop says the transmission has gone and no parts available anymore.

 

47 minutes ago, Paul1650 said:

Is this the woodruff type key I saw on the parts schematic on the axles?  Which part number on the attached picture will the key be on?

You will find it shown on page 13 with the rear hub. Have them start it and put it in forward  and look at each axle, the axle will be turning inside the hub on one side. The woodruff key is Wheel Horse part number 937022 and is a common hardware item; just your basic # 15 key. Presuming it is the woodruff key (pretty sure at this point that that is all you need) you can tell the "Professionals" at the Toro shop that we don't charge any consultation fees! Next time they are stumped just have them log onto the RedSquare site.    :hilarious:

Chances are you will need a new hub also.

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953 nut

@Paul1650    :text-feedback:

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Paul1650

The shop guys tell me it is definitely not a transaxle or key problem.  They have checked that.  They still maintain its the pump.   So I'm taking up daveoman on his repaired unit.   I'll let you know when I have it and hopefully I'm back in business.    Thanks for everyone's fault finding guidance and suggestions.  

 

Very much appreciated👏👏

Edited by Paul1650

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