BOBTHEBOPPER

Runaway governor k-321 unsolved

26 posts in this topic

All you Kohler K series guys out there their must be someone who has had a similar problem with a runaway governor situation. I posedt back in october "runaway governor on K-321 engine" and as of the present have not found the answer to my problem. Please if you so desire look back at my original post (BOBTHEBOPPER) for the problem I am experiencing. I thank all that have responded but their information on adjusment is "not the problem". iI am adding to my original post as follows:

          I removed the welch plug from the block in front of the governor gear (hole used to machine governor shaft into valve compartment) and can see the governor gear meshed with the camshaft. I did this by removing the cross shaft nut and moving the cross shaft out of the block as far as the cross tang would permit. Then after removing the spark plug (to relieve compression) I turned the crankshat by hand in the running direction. The gear meshes with the camshaft and moves backward against the washer on the camshaft gear shaft ( as would be when the engine is under its own power) about 3/16" but still maintains mesh with the camshaft gear. I then put the cross shaft back in position and tightened the nut. Thru the welch plug hole you can see the tang on the cross shaft contacting the button on the governor gear. I then adjusted the governor (cross shaft counterclockwise, with throttle in the wide open posiion) ran the engine with out the welch plug (kind of messy since oil drops and vapor exit) engine ran fine, I then taped the hole closed and ran the engine at above idle for about 10 minutes, throttle worked fine but then the engine sped up (no governor control). Am I missing something?? I removed the tape, and rechecked all of the preceeding. Could the governor gear shaft be worn enough to cause the gear to lose mesh with the cam gear? This is a mystery.

BOBTHEBOPPER    . 

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Hello Bob, did you happen to notice if the fly weights were still attached to the governor  gear? If you had the engine apart did the thrust washer in back of the gear get reinstalled? The engine would have had to been totally disassembled for this and the camshaft would have to have been  been pulled.

Is the governor stop pin installed. That would be the Phillips head screw with a copper washer 90 degrees around the corner of the cross shaft. Maybe pull that out and check to make sure something weird didn't happen there.

Last but not least check the linkages to be sure all the springs are in the right holes? Should be in the manuals on how that linkage all goes.

With the engine running and at idle you should feel a firm push on the governor arm as the engine is speeded up.

Others will be along with things I may have missed here.  

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Ok just read your other thread and sounds like you covered a few of things I just mentioned. I would disconnect all the linkages and run the engine at idle and see if there is push on that link arm as engine speed increases if there is it should mean everything inside the engine is working as should & almost has to be in the springs or linkages. Keep us posted. .

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Thanks Jim WHX11. Let me update you. The engine was rebuilt by me about 6 years ago. Last september while in use something happened to the governor and the engine reved wild.  

Checked everything and there was no action from the governor gear. I completely disassembled the engine. Put in a governor gear from another engine, replaced the piston rings and seals. Assembled and ran the engine. The engine ran fine forg about 30 minutes and the same  thing happened again. I was then able to bypass the governor linkage and rigged the engine to run with throttle control. This spring I removed my rig preformed the above procedure as per my post. 

    The spacer washer was installed along with the governor gear upon rebuild, and the gear pin was installed along with copper washer. All weights and pins seemed fine on the governor gear. Sometimes I get pressure on the cross shaft while it is running and then it stops. I wish I could take a video to show what happens but I would not no where to start and or know what to show. I am beginning to think that maybe the governor gear shaft is worn but you cannot get to it for a measurement. That is the only thing left.  .

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Unlikely the governor gear shaft is worn. The gear would wear out first being nylon. If the gear wobbles on the shaft, worn gear.

I had a similar problem with my governor on a K-321. Revved wide open for no apparent reason. Tore the engine down and found the piston skirt had fractured and sent a piece if shrapnel across the governor gear removing some if the teeth. Also noticed while down, there was no rev limiter mounted on the linkage. Fixed all the issues and it has been running flawlessly for years.

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Have you tried turning the governor shaft clockwise and tightening?

To me counter-clockwise is backwards.

 

Garry

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Gary,   As per the factory Kohler service manual you "grasp the end of cross shaft with pliers and turn counter clockwise as far is it will go". 

 

Thanks for the reply

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I know it does and have never been able to make that work. I go clockwise - the same way it turns when the throttle plate goes from idle position to wide open throttle.

 

Garry

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4 hours ago, BOBTHEBOPPER said:

Gary,   As per the factory Kohler service manual you "grasp the end of cross shaft with pliers and turn counter clockwise as far is it will go". 

 

Thanks for the reply

 

 

Counter clockwise while you are facing it.

gov.thumb.jpg.3117502a61fff062493c85792f63f9ef.jpg

 

 

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Thanks Wallfish you beat me to the punch (my next move).

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Oldredrider,  Thanks for your reply. Unlike my situation, you found an obvious reason for your problem. As stated all parts appear OK, thats why I am leaning to a worn governor gear shaft. My governor gear was worn egg shaped about .005 but according to others this is not excessive. If not the case let me know..

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The rev limiter I was referring to is called a "high speed stop" by Kohler. Illustrated in this diagram:

 

governor.JPG.d133ac81acddf75299b46f352c3776a9.JPG

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There ya go Dan @Achto 'member what I was askin what that :thingy: was for?

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Another lesson learned.:handgestures-thumbupright: One thing I like about this site s that I'm always learning.

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If your linkage is adjusted right It should work correctly by what you described in your first post .The only thing I can think of is the tangs on the governor weights that push the pin against the tang on the governor shaft are broke off  or bent so as the weights fly out they are not pushing the pin out against the tang on the governor shaft

To bad we do not live closer I would come over and help

 

Brian

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Thankyoubuckrancher for your reply,

 

Brian you may have hit the nail on the head, but just yesterday I was on line  looking up the govenor gear and noticed a picture of a gear with a separate pin. Unfortunatly this gear was not for the K series Kohler engines (my model has the weights rivited in place) however it cossed my mind about the pin shoulders maybe being worn. The only thing that bothers me about this is I replaced the gear from a K-241 that had been running but needed reboreing and was past the 30 thou oversize and it still did the same thing (this gear is in the engine now). My next move is to purchase a new govenor gear and thrust washer (but what a job to replace it) and see if that works.  I will look up where you are located to see how far you are from me, but sounds like you are quiet far, Thanks for the offer, will keep you posted.

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Just my :twocents-02cents: here. When it comes to governors, my experience shows that it is rarely an internal problem. Yes, as Brian said above, the tang can come loose, and even break off. That would be evidenced by turning the shaft from the outside. It should only rotate less than a quarter turn if all is well. It will rotate completely around if the tang is off. The fly weights sometimes can come off, but that is rare. I had a K161 that ran fine, but when I examined the governor gear, the hole was egg shaped. I replaced it and there was no difference in how the engine ran.

 

Having said that, I find that most times the problem is in the governor adjustment or the external linkage not being connected correctly. Start with the linkage.

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Thanks rmaynard for your input.  I agree that the govenor linkage adjustment and set up needs to be correct. I have had 4 different K series engine on the old Cubs, rebuilt them from ground up on some and never had a govenor issue such as this. I do have one concern about the the linkage  and it is not addressed in the Kohler factory service manual. It is as follows: Look at wallfish response  with the picture of the govener set up (I am sure that all series K seris engine techs are familiar with this picture from the K factory service manual). There is no reference to what the govener sping" tension" to the govenor speed bracket should be at the idle throttle position after the govenor adjustment is performed (also no reference to what the additional holes are for or do in this arm). My spring (in the top hole of speed bracket) was allways slightly lose at the idle position and never had this issue.  . 

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ID: 19   Posted (edited)

Just as a reference, here is a K-series governor/throttle linkage as set up on one of my K241S engines. Your K321 should be very similar.

 

gov1.thumb.jpg.d66f5b752434aa7a2c439c3dc3164513.jpg

 

The spring is inserted in the third hole from bottom on the governor arm, and third down from the top on the intermediate bracket.

 

gov2.thumb.jpg.97f9441d396d6ce95757cf5ce4116530.jpg

 

gov-throt.thumb.jpg.01fba5af38e06266222ff1ac4f4a86dd.jpg

Edited by rmaynard

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Bob, I have the set up as shown in the Kohler service manual as pictured by wallfish, the top hole of the speed control bracket. Actually all engines K 241 and k321 all had this arrangement. Thanks 

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I wonder if the governor arm is slipping on the shaft where it is clamped? Have seen the arm stretched around the shaft and had to open up the slot to give it more clamping ability. If you have tried to overcome the governor pressure by pushing the arm at the top you can imagine how much force it exerts at the end of the lever where the shaft is.

 

Garry

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ID: 22   Posted (edited)

Garry's wondering may have got it! That would also explain why it worked for a little while then didn't again.

You would probably notice if you try and re-adjust the governor and see if the arm moved on the shaft

Edited by wallfish

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Wallfih,   Sorry to Gary I did not have a chance to get back to him so this will pertain to both. I have checked that the governor arm clamp was tight on the governor shaft. I had that problem years back with a K-241 when I was adjusting it and that is something I look for.

 

 Thanks to both you and Gary.

Guys, Just a note as to the governor shaft not being tightened by the governor arm clamp when making this adjustment, after tightening the arm clamp allways make sure that the governor arm clamp has some space in the slot. This will avoid the arm slipping in the arm clamp.

 

Bob

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ID: 24   Posted (edited)

Hi guys,

    I think the problem is solved. I followed Garrys (gwest_ca-(File Mod) ) suggestion about governor shaft (and rechecked it) after I was stumped as to why this was happening. As stated I allways check the arm clamp to be sure it is tight on the governor shaft, however after checking it today I noticed the following: The arm clamp bolt was tight, there was space between the arms in the clamp slot but when I grabed the shaft and tried to twist it while holding the arm I noticed you could ever so slifhtly move it with some force. I was stumped, the bolt was tight and there was space in the slot in the arm clamp. I removed the bolt and low and behold I think I found the problem. The nut was tightening down on the shank (unthreaded) portion on the bolt. Thus the bolt and nut was tight in the clamp but was not able to squeze the clamp ears enough to make solid contact with the governor shaft. Thus with some force the shaft would turn in the clamp. These parts have been removed a number of times over the years and as Gary stated the clamp will stretch, he 's so right. I replaced it with a fully threaded bolt and now all is tight. I ran the engine about an hour and low and behold no problem. I hope this made the fix and saved me condiderable work. 

    Thanks to Garry and all and I hope this will help others..   

Edited by BOBTHEBOPPER
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51 minutes ago, BOBTHEBOPPER said:

I hope this will help others..   

It certainly will since you posted the final solution. So many threads go to a dead end because the once the issue is solved, the actual solution doesn't get posted for any number of different reasons. Glad to see you got it and thanks for posting your findings.

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