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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, roadapples said:

@HorseFixer Duke, I have an Ark loader with nearly the same bucket. They`re known for not tilting back very far. If I were building one from scratch, I would make the brackets on back of the bucket deeper on the bottom than on the top. That way you could haul more with the bucket closer to the ground.   :twocents-02cents:  I think I`m right, never had geometry....

 

Thanks roadapples this is good stuff!  :handgestures-thumbupright: I never operated one of these so I don't have a clue!  I have a question will it be able to dump the material okay by bringing it out? I drew up a BB Bucket Bracket design with 4 positions. What do you think?  ;)

 

BUCKET.thumb.jpg.7bca99b3afbd17a0c372320d8b13aae5.jpg

 

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Edited by HorseFixer
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Posted (edited)

It looks like the factory ARK bucket is done up at about 90 degrees at the bottom inside back corner.  I would say you would be better served by forming up your new bucket with that angle between 70 and 80 degrees otherwise you'll limit the amount of negative rollback of the bucket, especially when the bucket is low to the ground.  This makes it hard to keep material from spilling out of the bucket when carrying a load low to the ground.

 

Here is the built-in angle of the CTC bucket that I used for my 5Xi project.  -13 degrees from 90 so 77 degrees.  This is approximately the same as the factory kwikway bucket.   If you were to draw an imaginary line connecting the (2) bucket pins on mine, that angle would be a few degrees greater than 13 degrees that the bucket is bent at. 

 

Your middle two choices for your bucket mounting bracket (or perhaps splitting difference between those two middle choices) should allow for good geometry.  If you stray too far from them to either extreme, it makes it hard to keep loose material from spilling out when carrying a load as low as possible to the ground, or the other end of the spectrum is it makes it hard to completely dump out material at maximum boom height, like say, trying to place material in the back of a pickup truck bed.

 

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5XSn7kjsmDm--5__BpYMUYA96LJYFfkk6KCLzbLs

 

 

Edited by Snowmobileaddict
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Posted (edited)

To give you an idea of how this looks in real life, the photo below shows my bucket, fully rolled back.  That's about the height (maybe a touch lower) that I can carry loose material and not have it spill out.  If the back wall of my bucket were formed at 90 degrees and the bucket pins were parallel to the back of the bucket, I'd have to carry a loose material load much higher than what is shown in the photo below to not have the contents spill out.

 

XUN3WRC2El-GgYFlOpNPOkqy82QbZ8S1z4VlIp9I 

Edited by Snowmobileaddict
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I had my bucket made with about a 10 degree forward slant and also offset the holes. Haven't had any issues with dumping and I can carry it low to the ground without spilling.

 

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Andy and Brian are both right. I just thought it would be easier to do with the brackets. Maybe make them something like you`re drawing with more than one hole for adjustment. At least you know there`s a problem, although maybe not a big deal, you can address it before the bucket is finished. Either way would work, but like Andy said you don`t have a lot of room to go the other way....Jay

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This will give you a little idea of the angle change. It won't be the same as your bucket because my hole centers are just an estimate based on the picture.

I would make the adjustment on the top as it would be easier to move when you want to.

With the holes 1.25 apart you get about 3 1/16 change on the front edge.

 

bucket.jpg

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Posted (edited)

Before moving forward with a bucket design and pin-on bracket setup, you'll also likely need to optimize the pin spacing for the bucket so that the hydraulic bucket cylinder or shaft won't interfere with the back of the bucket when the bucket cylinder rod is fully extended.

 

As per the photo below, when the bucket rods are fully extended, the bucket pivots down to full-dump position and the cylinder body and piston shaft also move closer to the back side of the bucket and the loader boom.  You may want to do some mock up with cardboard or wood and your bucket cylinders before welding anything up so that you can be sure that nothing will bind, and the bucket cylinders or shafts won't hit anything when fully extended.

 

On my setup, it was just dumb luck that the CTC bucket and bracket geometry crossed over very well with the kwikway design.  When fully extended the bucket cylinder and shaft get close, but do not contact the back side of the bucket or the loader boom.

 

 

 

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This photo from the below message board thread is also good to review for thinking ahead.

 

http://www.mytractorforum.com/119-home-made-tractors-implements-accessories/175389-jd425-fel-build-input-requested.html

 

 

1251312078_eUtSm-L.jpg

 

 

 

 

Edited by Snowmobileaddict
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Take your spool valve to your local hydraulics shop (FleetPride/CatCo etc) and have them take a look at it.  I found o-rings for all of my ark loader parts there for next to nothing.  To do the spool valve (turned out to be worn beyond repair/cost to fix vs a new one) and new o-rings for all of the cylinders was under 10$.  Just a thought.

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Posted (edited)

Duke,

 

Here is what I came up with after a few minutes in my shed with an angle checker app and a measuring tape.

 

This should give a pretty good idea as to the profile of the CTC loader bucket.  Hope this helps you crunch some numbers and mock up some possibilities.  The entire bucket is formed from 10ga sheet steel.  There is a hardened steel cutting edge that is 1/2" thick ( pretty sure 1/2").

 

-Andy

 

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Edited by Snowmobileaddict
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I have contacted Eaton and they have -0- ZERO information or parts on that valve. I will have to take apart myself and see what I can get. :confusion-shrug:

 

On the Bucket Geometry I think the CTC Bucket Geometry makes sense, :handgestures-thumbupright:   If the Cylinder and Bucket Support arm get to close that can be easily fixed by increasing the distance between the support arm and Cylinder attachment locations.  :handgestures-salute:

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Opened a can of worms here.. Sure glad others chimed in to help....

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The internet is a wonderful tool but sometimes you have to go visit a brick and mortar store to get the information you need. Take your spool valve and actually go visit a hydraulic store. I bet they'll have the parts on hand or be able to tell you what size o-rings/parts you'll need. You'll want to check the bores in the block to make sure nothing it worn outside spec. 

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A couple questions here:

 

(1) Andy the PURPLE LINE  19.5" how come that line doesn't go all the way to top of BUCKET?

 

(2) What is the back of the bucket dimension?

 

I notice that your Hole spacing between cylinder and bucket arm are wider than mine because of increased degree of 13deg tilt.  :handgestures-thumbupright:

17 minutes ago, roadapples said:

Opened a can of worms here.. Sure glad others chimed in to help....

 

Maybe we will go Fishin!  Ill  bring the BEER!  ~Duke

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Posted (edited)
On ‎4‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 9:16 PM, HorseFixer said:

A couple questions here:

 

(1) Andy the PURPLE LINE  19.5" how come that line doesn't go all the way to top of BUCKET?

 

(2) What is the back of the bucket dimension?

 

I notice that your Hole spacing between cylinder and bucket arm are wider than mine because of increased degree of 13deg tilt.  :handgestures-thumbupright:

 

Maybe we will go Fishin!  Ill  bring the BEER!  ~Duke

 

 

The top of the bucket is flat, that is why the 19.5" dimension looks funny in the previous photo. That and the black paint on the bucket makes the side profile blend right in with the cutting edge, its hard to discern the "top" of the bucket in that first photo.  Here is another with the back wall of the bucket measured out as well (18").  I missed that in the first one...

 

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Edited by Snowmobileaddict
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Thanks you! Yep I guess it was a OPTICAL DELUSION :handgestures-thumbupright:

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Posted (edited)

Ordered this Prince 2-Spool Directional Control Valve, 3000 PSI, Model# RD522CCAA5A4B1 Tonight.

Has some pretty good Specs and the best part is Made in the  U.S.A.  All part of the master plan to..........

:USA:   MAKE MY LOADER GREAT AGAIN!  :USA:

P.S. No Snowflakes Allowed!  :angry-teeth:

 

58e7319dceb5c_PRINCEVALVE.png.11b271403be4185786dc92ca76a3013a.png       58e731a4ba336_PRINCEVALVE2.png.4acbd62004f342d8480536331f2fa9ab.png

Edited by HorseFixer
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Duke, I think you made the right choice there. Messing around with a darn near 40 yr old valve. Good chances the bores in the old valve are worn enough you would have been right back into it after putting new rings in it. If this was going to be a restore of loader putting it back to its pure form, then I could see chasing parts for that valve. Now obviously this total remanufacture of the loader so stepping up and putting in a new valve body is a good choice.                                                     Besides we here on RS would not expect anything other from the Ol' Duke then to put his spin on it.

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Posted (edited)

I think that valve will work out well.  At first I thought that was the same one that Brian bought for his build.  However, he ended up going with the one that has a float setting for the boom spool.  It cost about $40 more though. This is the unit with a float detent:  http://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Valves/Directional-Control-Valves/2-SPOOL-8-GPM-PRINCE-MB21GB5C1-DA-VALVE-W-FLOAT-9-7862-F.axd

 

Brian also has a great FEL build thread from last year.  His was a ground-up, from scratch project.  Another very good resource for anyone embarking on an FEL build for a garden tractor:

 

 

 

One more thing about the control valve..In the specs for it on the Surplus center website take note of the information about the relief valve setting.  According to the website, it will ship to you with it set at 2000 PSI and it is reportedly adjustable from 1500 PSI to 3000 PSI.  Most likely, you are going to want to dial that relief valve down as low as you can.  You probably already know this, but its basically a spring loaded ball bearing behind a relief port that sends excess high pressure fluid back to the reservoir tank when you hit the relief valve pressure. 

 

Now, the smaller loaders, at least the Kwik-Way built ones, shipped with the relief valve calibrated at a much lower pressure.  Like 550-600 PSI.  I adjusted mine slightly to increase that pop-off pressure because I noticed the relief valve was squealing (trying to open) when lifting medium loads.  What you want is for the relief valve to open at the maximum safe load limit for your tractor FEL setup.  From all the reading that I have done, for the 5xi and a loader attachment similar to yours and mine, that maximum safe load is around 550 pounds (I'm sure people will chime in and say its a much heavier weight than that).  With that said, if your relief valve on your new control valve really cannot be set to a value lower than 1500 PSI, it will allow the tractor to "try" to lift much more than 550 pounds.  That is where you, the operator, will need to exercise caution.  You will need to evaluate the weight of a load before you try to lift it.  Because your relief valve has a much higher opening pressure, you won't be able to rely on it to be the weak link in the chain to protect your loader frame, your tractor frame, or you in the drivers seat.  Instead of the relief valve opening under too heavy a load for your setup, a weld may open up, or a cross member may bend/break and nobody wants that to happen.

 

Think of the relief valve as like a circuit breaker in your main panel.  Your counter top convenience outlets in your kitchen should be on 12ga wire protected by a 20 amp breaker.  Having a relief valve set a 2x the safe calibration would be like protecting those same kitchen outlets with a 40amp breaker.  If you try to draw that much current on 12ga wire, the wire becomes the weak link and effectively also becomes a fuse, and POOF...

 

Edited by Snowmobileaddict
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Andy this Valve does have float. Your right the cheaper one doesn't.
 
RD522GCGA5A4B1 Directional Control Valve, Two Spool, 4 Way, 4 Position, Tandem Center, Float Spool, Cast Iron, 3000 psi, Lever Handle, 25 gpm, In/Out: 3/4" NPTF, Work 1/2" NPTF

Specifications for this item

Part Number RD522GCGA5A4B1
Number of Items 1
Maximum Pressure 3000  pounds_per_square_inch
Specification Met certified frustration-free
Measurement System Inch
Brand Name Prince Manufacturing
Color Black
Connector Type NPT Female
Handle Type Lever Handle
Item Shape Monoblock
Manufacturer Series Number Model RD5100
Material Cast Iron
Maximum Temperature 180  degrees_fahrenheit
Model Number RD522GCGA5A4B1
Number of Ports 4
Pressure Flow Rate 25  gallons_per_minute
Size 3/4"
Style Threaded
UNSPSC Code

40141609

 

 

 
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So yeah, the:

 

RD522GCGA5A4B1 has float

 

in your post from last night, you listed the

 

RD522CCAA5A4B1 as the one you ordered, and that one doesn't have float.  I'm not sure how often I'll make use of the float feature on mine to tell you the truth, but I suppose its nice to have.

 

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Yeah I musta clicked on wrong one to copy description last night? :confusion-shrug:  This one has CENTER FLOAT instead of DETENT how thats gonna work I dunno. I bought it off AMAZON I'm a Prime member so I get free shipping. Nice thing about AMAZON don't like it for any reason color ec,t they take it back 100% no questions asked  :handgestures-thumbupright:

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Posted (edited)

You're golden.

 

The one you bought is in the photo below.  Its a spring loaded, return-to open center, with a float detent on 1 spool.  Same functionality as mine and Brian's.

 

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Edited by Snowmobileaddict
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Posted (edited)

It felt like It was Christmas at the Duke "O" Minium today. The Crossmember behind the Bucket I cut out I picked up a new one or two or three!  :lol:  Never can have enough Iron around the shop. The new Pump came today as did the mule drive to bolt it to. I took the liberty to strip all the pulleys off of it! :handgestures-thumbupright:  I then took a drive and decided to get HOSED 3250psi worth. And while I was at it all new fittings steel lines and the whole ball of wacks. And the best part of all....... Tomorrow the 522XI Comes home to Michigan.  :greetings-clappingyellow:

 

DSCN9920.thumb.JPG.e79d4d477d4354a3d94e2a4e9cfdf226.JPG

 

DSCN9919.thumb.JPG.a5c8762acb18581e184ddb649dbc9218.JPG

 

DSCN9917.thumb.JPG.1da152afee6fddef2fdff1000f2ce7db.JPG

 

DSCN9918.thumb.JPG.669479b03ebb793f42ad0846223eaf6a.JPG 

Edited by HorseFixer
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Mmm, that chrismasy feeling fresh out the box, are you going to leave the pump sky blue? :ychain:

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Nahhhh I don't like the Pennsylvania Panzer Color, this will be Gloss Black just like the Loader.   :whistle:

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