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Cee245

Problem with a stalling 416

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Cee245

Hey all, 

I have a 97 416h with 800hrs. I've had it for about 7 years. I haven't had too much trouble with it....  I did a mostly cosmetic re-store of the tractor, painted the metal, re did a couple electrical connections, coil, plugs ect.That was a few years ago...  Last summer it would run for an intermittent amount of time.  It would run excellent 5-15 min and shut down on a hot day >80 and ran longer on a <60 degree day but would still just lose all power at once... I wait an hour and it started right up and ran great for a short time and shut down again .  BUT, once winter came, It runs perfectly.  I've used it about 10 times this winter for about and hour each time and it's started and run as expected.  I know of a couple things to check but I haven't dealt with this before.  Any suggestions are are appreciated. 

1486877726701.jpg

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benji756

sounds like it may be a fuel problem, like its vapor locking, check to see if your fuel line is close to a heat source anywheres or if the carb is somehow getting heat directed to it.

could also be something electrical is heating up and shutting it down then when it cools down it will restart

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953 nut

I had that problem with a 312-8 years ago, the fuel cap vent wasn't working and as the fuel level went down it caused a vacuum in the tank and eventually the fuel pump couldn't overcome it. Replaced the cap and the problem went away.

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Pollack Pete

Buy another tractor for Summer use and just use this one in the Winter.All kidding aside,sounds like the ignition coil may be getting hot causing the stalling problem.Next time it stalls,have some ice in a plastic bag handy,hold it against the coil for a few minutes and see what happens.

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squonk

Or it could be the ign module. Next time it stalls, check for spark right away to see if it is electrical.

Edited by squonk
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gwest_ca

The common denominator appears to be heat.

When was the last time the engine covers were removed for a thorough cleaning of the cooling fins?

When was the valve tappet clearance last checked? Valves get longer with heat and if there is not sufficient tappet clearance to accept the expansion the valve ends up not seating and you lose compression. Cools down, valve shrinks and compression is restored so it runs again.

 

Garry

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T-Mo

Could be the vent in the fuel cap is clogged.  Try removing it and running it again.  If it doesn't shut down, then run a small pin through the vent hole in the cap to clean it out.

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WH nut
1 hour ago, squonk said:

Or it could be the ign module. Next time it stalls, check for spark right away to see if it is electrical.

Exactly, its electrical. Module or rotor ring.

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Adams94

Have had farm tractors do this and it has always been the coil going out, new coil has fixed it for me.

Edited by Adams94
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Cee245

 Hey guys, it is a P216 Onan motor, seems to be heat related since it hasn't stalled the last 4 months. It has run great besides a dead battery, I blow out the engine with air after each mow, I have checked the vent on the gas cap, replaced all fuel lines and vacuum line last summer along with plugs, fuel filter air filters and the coil on top of motor is reading good. However, I haven't ever decarboned the heads or adjusted the valves. (I don't know how) I suspect the ignition module under the flywheel from reading other posts on this subject... I believe I'll have to wait till it warms up and when it stalls, I'll quickly check for spark...

Garry, the covers were removed last summer and cleaned. Also, the oil pressure light constantly blinks but it has done this since I bought it over 200 hrs ago. (oil pressure switch?) Thanks for the input!

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1995 520H+96+97

Can you put a volt meter to the positive side of the coil and run it till it quits? You may also check the ignition fuse for corrosion and heat damage.

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Cee245

 

The fuses all look good. I had my Dad redo that part of the wiring. The fuses are all sealed individually in a rubber holder. I'm not strong at electrical stuff. (He fixed my wiring and I rebuilt his 416-8 transmission)  I now have that tractor.  I made out on that deal! Lol

 

This pic shows where the fuses are now. Look below the fuel pump and a little right. They are in those red little boot things. 1486946869050.thumb.jpg.6aa108f4e45aaa7e79663682a79b15ea.jpg

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gwest_ca
On 2/12/2017 at 10:39 AM, cee245 said:

 Hey guys, it is a P216 Onan motor, seems to be heat related since it hasn't stalled the last 4 months. It has run great besides a dead battery, I blow out the engine with air after each mow, I have checked the vent on the gas cap, replaced all fuel lines and vacuum line last summer along with plugs, fuel filter air filters and the coil on top of motor is reading good. However, I haven't ever decarboned the heads or adjusted the valves. (I don't know how) I suspect the ignition module under the flywheel from reading other posts on this subject... I believe I'll have to wait till it warms up and when it stalls, I'll quickly check for spark...

Garry, the covers were removed last summer and cleaned. Also, the oil pressure light constantly blinks but it has done this since I bought it over 200 hrs ago. (oil pressure switch?) Thanks for the input!

 

See two oil pressure switches listed.

Low oil switch 94-1845 is no longer available.

A 98-1703 oil switch is still available from Toro @ $219. Think they will be in stock for a looooong time.

One switch must control the hourmeter and the other the oil light but don't know which is which.

I am sure there will be a suitable automotive replacement.

 

Garry

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cleat

Lots of them on ebay for low prices. I searched "onan oil pressure switch".

 

May not be the exact same part number but so long as it is for a P-series Onan it should operate at the correct pressure.

 

If it only has one connector, it would be for the low oil pressure I believe and you can just ground the other wire to make the hourmeter work.

 

Cleat

 

Edited by cleat
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Cee245

Thanks everyone!

 I ordered a new oil pressure switch.  Where is the best place to get a new ignition module?   I think I need the one that is under the flywheel.  

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Cee245

Update:

The 416h ran great today! ~70 out when mowing.

No misses or **** down.  We got a lot done outside as far as picking up obstructions from the kids,

 

I just now put the muffler cover guards back on. 

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Redline69

Little late to this discussion, but do you or anyone else have the part number for this ignition module? Is that part not just used for charging the battery? 

There is also mention of a rotor ring, is that the same thing?

 Appreciate it.

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Handy Don
54 minutes ago, Redline69 said:

Little late to this discussion, but do you or anyone else have the part number for this ignition module? Is that part not just used for charging the battery? 

There is also mention of a rotor ring, is that the same thing?

 Appreciate it.

This is a 4+ year old thread you've posted too.

Do you have an Onan P216? 

The ignition and charging on that engine are separate. A ignition module attached to the block senses the position of a rotor attached to the flywheel and triggers spark via a coil. The charging is via magnets in the flywheel rotating past a stator mounted to the block and generating AC current that goes through a voltage regular to charge the battery.

If you can post the model and serial of your tractor, we can add links to the relevant manuals and parts lists. Or you can search yourself in the files/manuals/documents section. Start with "tractor 416-H" as search terms (and choose "use all my terms")

Good luck!

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Redline69

Hi  Don,

 Yeah, I tagged this old thread because it seemed relevant to my problem here with my 416 H, with  P216 G engine.

 Problem I am having is the engine is dying when it gets hot. I seemed to find that this was related to possibly a bad ignition module behind the fly wheel. When I mentioned this to a Toro dealer, they said the module behind the flywheel was just involved in the charging of the battery and not so much the operation of the engine..so in a round about way, I was looking for some clarity.

 Appreciate your assistance.

 Frank 

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lynnmor
6 hours ago, Redline69 said:

Hi  Don,

 Yeah, I tagged this old thread because it seemed relevant to my problem here with my 416 H, with  P216 G engine.

 Problem I am having is the engine is dying when it gets hot. I seemed to find that this was related to possibly a bad ignition module behind the fly wheel. When I mentioned this to a Toro dealer, they said the module behind the flywheel was just involved in the charging of the battery and not so much the operation of the engine..so in a round about way, I was looking for some clarity.

 Appreciate your assistance.

 Frank 

 

To be clear, you need another dealer.

 

Yes, the module and the ignition coil can become heat sensitive. 

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Gregor

Might help, might not. :confusion-shrug:

 

 

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Handy Don
5 hours ago, lynnmor said:

 

To be clear, you need another dealer.

To @Redline69

Definitely :text-yeahthat:

 

Since you confirmed the P216, the good news is that the service manual is an excellent document. The bad news is that only a thorough and diligent reader will get its benefits. The P216 is a great engine, but not a trivial one. Once you find your footing with correct information (dealer dig) we'll be here to help you with any other questions!  Good luck!

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Redline69

Thanks for the replies guys, and the link to the manual.

 I agree, it sounds like this guy wasn't giving me very good advice, and not just that, his prices were insane.

 I found an after market coil last night, not sure if the quality of these things is consistent from make to make? Price is right, compared to the price I got from the dealer..lol.

The ROP Shop Ignition Coil KIT Module fits Toro Wheel Horse 416- [amazon_B079HN839V] - $22.50 : Thousands of goods, all kinds of benefits! (besttecy.co

 

I see the ignition module on page 8-1, just wondering where the part number is for it?

 

 Again, thanks for the assistance!

Frank 

 

 

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Handy Don
1 hour ago, Redline69 said:

Thanks for the replies guys, and the link to the manual.

 I agree, it sounds like this guy wasn't giving me very good advice, and not just that, his prices were insane.

 I found an after market coil last night, not sure if the quality of these things is consistent from make to make? Price is right, compared to the price I got from the dealer..lol.

The ROP Shop Ignition Coil KIT Module fits Toro Wheel Horse 416- [amazon_B079HN839V] - $22.50 : Thousands of goods, all kinds of benefits! (besttecy.co

 

I see the ignition module on page 8-1, just wondering where the part number is for it?

 

 Again, thanks for the assistance!

Frank 

 

 

Personally, and referencing the manual, I'd begin by TESTING parts before buying new ones (unless your disposable income is much higher than mine and you just need some retail therapy :)). The coil is not a common point of failure AND it generally is not heat sensitive AND it's easily tested, for example.

What is your actual problem?  Symptoms?

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