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mikeeyre74

Honestly.. should I split this case?

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Argh. I have the whole Sundstrand tranny from my C120 Auto sitting on my bench. I know it needs keyways cut in it and/or the axles welded up for the repair.. I don't know the history of the machine prior to that. I've never run it. The machine shop guy says he can cut the keyways without me removing the axles, buuutttttt..... since it's on the bench, and it probably needs axle seals anyway, how hard is it to split the case? Should I just do it? Gaskets still available readily for these things? 

 

Be honest. I never wanna dig this far into this machine again.. but I don't wanna do anything unnecessary either. And I sure don't wanna get in over my head either! Lay it on me....

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You don't have to split the case to replace axle seals. Generally,  the transaxle,  other than a worn parking pawl, are trouble free. 

It is a gamble to fix the axles and find the pump and/or motor is bad. Since the axles need fixing, it might be telling you the rest of the tranny is strong.

Also, they are tough transmissions, I would fix the axles and run it. Hopefully,  that's all it needs

Edited by oldredrider
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Right. But if it's relatively easy to split the case and pull the axles, it's easier to carry two axles in my hand to the shop and infinitely easier to machine them that way, than it is for me to bring a whole transaxle down there and have it machines that way... and I was just saying, since the seals need to be changed anyway, it's no big deal for that either, while the case is apart. 

 

Mostly what I was concerned with is parts availability (gaskets/seals) for when and if I do it, and if there's "that thing" inside there that you needs special tools and training for or you'll never get it back together. Cause I won't do it if that's the case!

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Are the axle bearings good ?    If they have any radial movement, that would be the reason to go ahead and open the case.

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It's not hard to open up the trans I did it and never had any experience on a wheel horse tractor at all. There is help here that you would never get anywhere else. All the experts you'll ever need. And one is @daveoman1966 ,and the other is @pfrederi .I know there are others but I had help here and did all my own work on my sundstrand. I have a C160 and probably the same trans. I had to open it up and fix a axle coming out. Read all the posts in search box on sundstrand and you will get a wealth  of knowledge. My post is c160 axle coming out. I know one side has to come off  first but I can't remember witch.there are manuals here for your tractor and trans .it not hard to open it but take pictures to help you reassemble. It sure helped me. The axles are held in by a c clip but the differential must but removed to get to them. It's all in the manual. And if you become a supporter of red square you can post all the pictures you want for help. I did and it's well worth it. The guys here are great for helping you and me .

 

Edited by BOB ELLISON
correction
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Seriously, if you have the whole unit on the bench, it would be better and easier to just take the axles to the shop.  It should require no special tools.  Drain the transmission.  Somehow get the whole unit to sit on it's side...pump down (shallow side of the trans down).  Of course you need to pull off the hubs, brake drum, and hitch pin (if you have one).  Take out the 6 bolts holding the 2 halves together.  Use a chisel and a hammer to find a place to tap in to split the trans halves.  Lift off the left hand side of the case half.  Pull out the axle and differential.  BOOM-SHA-KA-LAC-A.  You do not have to take off the pump.

  Call your TORO dealer for the case half gasket...WH # 5999.

  Your axle seals are WH # 6449  This crosses to SKF # 11124.

 

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IMHO...  split it.  It is 40+ years old and who knows what goes on in the gearbox. If you know what a wrench is...you can do it as it doesn't take a engineering degree.  

A bigger issue is the Sundstrand pump and motor assembly.  While your have the pump / motor assy off, pull the pump off of the end cap and have a look inside to inspect the cylinder block/piston assembly condition.  If the brass piston slippers  are smooth and not gouged or pitted, then all else is LIKELY ok too.  If so, you only need make or buy a new gasket and put the pump back on...good to go. If they are scored deep enough to 'finger-nail' feel, they need refurbished, as well as many other similar internal  pump and motor components.  Here is what I mean....

 

 

218 (20).JPG

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I'd like to get in there to clean the strainer anyway... but that gasket #5999 for the case is listed as discontinued? 

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Gaskets are easy to make.  Buy the correct thickness vellumoid sheet material.    Glue to case with spray contact cement, and trim with an x-acto.

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29 minutes ago, mikeeyre74 said:

I'd like to get in there to clean the strainer anyway... but that gasket #5999 for the case is listed as discontinued? 

buy some thin gasket material from auto store and make your own that's what I did. it has to be thin and not cork ,when you get the old gasket off

you'll see its very thin and hard I believe its  1/32 thick about the thickness and stiffness as a pop can case

but others may chime in soon. I make most of my own gaskets

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I've spent the last half hour googling all that and you're right, I think I can handle that. :) 

 

any idea if the automatic axle seals are the same as the 8speeds? I've replaced those before but I'm having a bit of a time finding the NAPA x-ref number by googling it. 

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You can buy 1/32 gasket material at auto parts store.  Ball peened hammer and scalpel/xacto knife and you are in business

Look at the pinned post at the top of this forum for seals

 

CR11124

Edited by pfrederi
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The 6449 seals are for the hydro...SKF # 11124.

The manual tractors use TORO # 100443...crosses to SKF # 11050.

Both axles are 1 1/8"...they are going to be the same to replace (if that is what you are asking).  :occasion-xmas:

The gasket material is Karo-Pak at Auto Zone  $5 or $6...it is 1/32" thick and come 1' by 3'...plenty to make 2 or 3 until you get it right.  :)

 

Edited by stevasaurus
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You guys are fast. Either that or I just have to SAY something here first before the next search term helps me find what I'm looking for, which in this case was the seal chart in this forum. Got it now, 6449 and all the x-ref numbers. Yep, I'm going in! Gonna tear it down for a look see...

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This is when we all disappear....good luck!!  :occasion-xmas:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just kidding...we will be here to walk you through it and answer all questions.  I think you made the right decision.  :)  You will be surprised how easy the internals are and will have a new appreciation for these little guys. 

 

 

Edited by stevasaurus
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OK, I got into it. It's a little scarier than I'd have liked inside that pump and stuff, but I think it's manageable. And I found what the problem was.. problems, rather!

 

 Here's some pictures.

 

Here's the cover off the transmission. When I pulled the half off the "top" a shim fell out. I'm not sure where it came from, but it looks like the "thrust washer" as seen in figure 100 of the manual, so I suspect it goes on the end of the middle gear in this picture? Can anyone confirm? That's the only thing I didn't actually get to see for myself when I pulled this apart...

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2h1fpluct53cecs/cover removed where does shim go.jpg?dl=0

 

Those of you with a sharp eye in the previous picture will have noticed this issue... 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rn0co38m1rksifn/Cover off loose pawl.jpg?dl=0

 

Looks like this roll pin snapped...

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bd4tlror2y3cqp1/roll pin snapped off parking shaft.jpg?dl=0

 

And here's the pawl itself that I found floating around inside the box.. 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vz6uu461z9yujha/Parking Pawl.jpg?dl=0

 

Other than that, I also found this floating around in the bottom of the transmission as well.. I suspect that this is supposed to be all one piece, right? Can I still get these strainers as a replacement part?

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v7pd1sdou6pfk5y/strainer broke.jpg?dl=0

 

Both of the.. whatever these are called, looked identical whenI took them apart. Here's one of them just so you can see what I'm referring to. They both looked the same..

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vp4fdmdyznnbsyz/slippers look ok.jpg?dl=0

 

And finally, the only damage I found to scoring was on the driven copper plate looking thing, seen here. There's a slight score just in the center there, just as the top, but it's not too bad. 

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2fozf09dimy4pbl/scored a little.jpg?dl=0

 

So, now i'm off to pull the differential out and get those axles off to my friend in AZ who has a bridgeport he's gone work some magic with for me. Full length keyways here I come!

 

I have a lot more pictures, and can just take more pictures, if I overlooked something or if anyone wants to see anything else in here?

 

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That valve plate (last picture) is in bad shape.  That groove will let a lot of fluid leak by causing weakness and overheating.  The groove looks deep, maybe too deep to repair by resurfacing it.  The slippers (9 pistons) could use a resurfacing.  Make sure you keep track which hole they came out of as the should go back in the same one.

 

The parking pawl is badly worn and the metal from it probably caused the damage to the slippers and valve plate.  I would bet the other set of slippers and valve plate will also need attention.

 

The suction screen is NLA. 

 

I would hold off on the axles for the moment.  Bigger problems here in the hydro unit...Sorry.

 

Not irreparable but it will take some time and effort.  Also may have to buy a new valve plate (or two) and they are not cheap.

 

Edited by pfrederi

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I hear what you're saying, and thanks for the reply. Fortunately, the picture and the reality of that plate are two different things. It looks bad in the picture, but you can't even really catch fingernail on the plate when it's in your hand. It looks like it's a MM deep in the photo, but it's really not. it's maybe .0005" deep, but I have no way to measure that. I'd like to try and polish it out though, so what grade paper would be appropriate do you think for the finish on something like this? 

 

If the screen is NLA, what are we using for a replacement now? 

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I use a piece of glass and wet paper. Swirling the valve plate around on it. I start with 600 the work up to 1200 and finally crocus cloth.  Same process for the slippers (pistons)

 

Post a want add in the classifieds here for a strainer.  You might try epoxy to put it back together

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Are those metal pieces supposed to be permanently attached to it? Or do they just sandwich together around the end piece there once you bolt the hydro unit onto it?

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All one piece the lip on the large end gets sandwiched between the hydro motor and the transaxle

IMG_0054.JPG

IMG_0055.JPG

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As far as the transmission...you took it apart upside down.  The shallow side of the trans should be on the bottom and you lift off the deep side.  Not a big deal now, but you need to put it together the other way.  Those parts were not floating around in there before you took it apart.  They fell out when you pulled off the shallow side.  Notice the bolts in the differential...when you put it back together (this is important)...build in the shallow side...the differential will be placed so the nuts on the bolts are facing up. 

nw_aroALaL-weRxFFfaaqj-RknzH1z3Gy5TyPfTpqYU?size_mode=3&dl=0&size=800x600

 


Yes, the thrust washer goes on top (in this picture) of the mushroom gear.

YNHGSFg0VL79jY7t2XWgNDcPm-WJfMisQAJhHfIpHYo?size_mode=3&dl=0&size=800x600

 

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Just a suggestion: It would be a lot handier for everyone following this thread if all your pics would post directly to the thread and be viewable in your posts.

What we're getting is a list of links we have to individually click on to view.

Dropbox apparently doesn't allow pics to be directly displayed in the format they are intended to be shown in, because I tried using the URL of your first pic in a composition window of my own, and it won't accept the URL and display it directly.

I use Photobucket, and it allows me to post and display pics directly to this, or any site.

You just copy and paste the URL tag they provide, drop the tag in the composition using the "insert other media" button, then choose the "Insert image from URL" option. The pic(s)is then displayed directly in the post.

 

Another method of posting pics directly to the thread is using the "choose files" option immediately below the composition window, and insert pics from you own PC directly.

 

I just find the Dropbox thing to be unduly cumbersome. It won't even allow you to toggle to the next pic or go back to one viewed before. It forces you to go back to the thread and click on the next link to see the next picture.

IMO, not very user friendly on this end.

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I've got lots of drop box storage.. but I just copy the links they provide. I wonder if I can insert the pics like that by plugging in the URL? I'll try it here:

 

Test:

 

Hmm.. test fail. This forum isn't friendly to dropbox. Which is odd, since that's a pretty big provider for online storage. :? I'm not sure how to handle this otherwise? I Don't play with photo bucket or anything else?  

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