C 81 No Start with electrical Issue

[Rob R 951]

Evening Gentlemen just traded a S/S Snow Blower for a supposed C 81 which had "starting issues". It was

getting dark (PO works till 4:00PM) so first thing I did was hook my jump box to it and attempt to crank

her over.... she did turn, had some compression and coughed weakly but did not start.......  since the

tractor overall condition was good I took the trade.... It has been painted over so there are no readable

tags on the tractor and engine..... it was pitch black when I got her home but I found something right away

that peaked my height of confusion .... the battery was mounted backwards the positive was going to ground

and the negative to the one side of the solenoid...... how the heck did the engine crank???? was it rotating

backwards????   The only thing else I had time to do was jump the solenoid, she cranked no spark jumped

the coil to 12v and the removed plug had good spark...... so to be continued tomorrow with a wiring diagram

Assume the first thing to do is connect the positive side of the battery to the left side of the solenoid and the

negative to a good ground and proceed while running the wiring diagram.... one other thing did the make

C 81 three (3) speeds????  as it does not have a hi > low lever (slot is there)...... Thanks

[Ed Kennell 35,493]

It should be a '79,'80, or '81.  They all had 8 speeds.     The tranny must be a transplant.      Sounds like you have fire at the plug.   Spray some fuel in the carb and she should run.

If it will only run with hand fed sprayed fuel, pull the fuel  line off the carb and check for a good spurting fuel supply when you crank the engine.

If you have fuel, clean, rebuild, or replace the carb as necessary.

No fuel, pull the line into the fuel pump to verify there is a supply to the pump.

If you have supply to the pump, clean, rebuild, or replace the pump.

No fuel, replace fuel lines, filter, and shut off valve.

 

Note, do the above fuel checks with the cap removed from the tank....the cap vent may be blocked.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Ed Kennell

[JackC 616]

It would not hurt to start with some basics and clean the points and be sure the points gap is set to .020. Also check for correct and clean spark plug and gap to .025.

[Aldon 4,826]

Make sure the hi/lo shifter rod has not been removed or broken loose.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,475]

Will be a 1978 or 1979 model.

Toro has the 1980 and 1981 named incorrectly as they are C-85 models.

 

A good tractor service manual

Garry

[953 nut 51,413]

Starter motors and ignition coils are not polarity sensitive, but charging systems are. With the battery in backward you could have a voltage regulator problem to deal with. As others have said, a full cleaning of the fuel system and points along with a new Champion H-10 gaped to .035 (battery ignitions are .035, mags. get gaped at .025) should be all you need.

[Rob R 951]

8 hours ago, Aldon said:

Make sure the hi/lo shifter rod has not been removed or broken loose.

 

Will do Aldon suppose to be mild today..... so I will have some time to sort through the mess....... if the lever is missing or broke I hope it is in HIGH gear......

44 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

Starter motors and ignition coils are not polarity sensitive, but charging systems are. With the battery in backward you could have a voltage regulator problem to deal with. As others have said, a full cleaning of the fuel system and points along with a new Champion H-10 gaped to .035 (battery ignitions are .035, mags. get gaped at .025) should be all you need.

Thanks Richard, today is assessment day.... results to follow..... if I can get it crank and start then I will go through ALL the wiring..... 

[Rob R 951]

15 hours ago, rgrottk said:

oEvening Gentlemen just traded a S/S Snow Blower for a supposed C 81 which had "starting issues". It was

getting dark (PO works till 4:00PM) so first thing I did was hook my jump box to it and attempt to crank

her over.... she did turn, had some compression and coughed weakly but did not start.......  since the

tractor overall condition was good I took the trade.... It has been painted over so there are no readable

tags on the tractor and engine..... it was pitch black when I got her home but I found something right away

that peaked my height of confusion .... the battery was mounted backwards the positive was going to ground

and the negative to the one side of the solenoid...... how the heck did the engine crank???? was it rotating

backwards????   The only thing else I had time to do was jump the solenoid, she cranked no spark jumped

the coil to 12v and the removed plug had good spark...... so to be continued tomorrow with a wiring diagram

Assume the first thing to do is connect the positive side of the battery to the left side of the solenoid and the

negative to a good ground and proceed while running the wiring diagram.... one other thing did the make

C 81 three (3) speeds????  as it does not have a hi > low lever (slot is there)...... Thanks

4 hours ago, rgrottk said:

 

Will do Aldon suppose to be mild today..... so I will have some time to sort through the mess....... if the lever is missing or broke I hope it is in HIGH gear......

Thanks Richard, today is assessment day.... results to follow..... if I can get it crank and start then I will go through ALL the wiring..... 

Okay so status update first I cleaned every thing up including all the grounds..... clean the battery cables and installed the polarity to the right terminals, cleaned the points and set the gap, disconnected the line from the pump to the carb and turned her over pumping fine but terrible fuel coming out, removed all lines cleaned and blew-out installed a new fuel filter, cleaned the charged the cylinder with a bit of 2 cycle gas.... changed the spark plug wire and boot (original in horrible condition) put it all back together and cranked here over ....  STARTED RIGHT-UP ....

and purred like a kitten... smooth idle a  good power through all speeds..... took her for a spin trans is good but must be a trans plant as it is a three speed but a good one.

Problems remaining first took the paint of the engine shroud and I.D. tag with some acetone... it is a 91-08K801 02521 8166 would like to know what model this is or was Engine is a K181 30538

1. The PTO manual Clutch is fused together and will not separate (assume the PO had the adjustment way to tight) what is the best way to free it up (take it apart)

2. It is NOT charging I chked the wires going into the rectifier there is 12v present on the orange wire with the key on, then there are two yellow wires coming from the stator with the tractor running they read approx. a. 37- 42 VAC and b. 23.5 VAC.   NEED HELP HERE AS TO WHAT TO DO NEXT OR VERIFY IF THE RECTIFIER IS TOAST..... Thanks to all

[pfrederi 17,114]

  You should get over 28 volts AC between the two yellow wires (this is between the two wires not between each one and ground ---one multimeter lead into one yellow wire the other lead to the other wire.)) 

 

What is the battery voltage while she is running?

[Rob R 951]

3 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

  You should get over 28 volts AC between the two yellow wires (this is between the two wires not between each one and ground ---one multimeter lead into one yellow wire the other lead to the other wire.)) 

 

What is the battery voltage while she is running?

Okay just had lunch will do the test as you indicated.... battery is showing 12.3 volts. Thanks for the reply... stay tuned

[Rob R 951]

9 minutes ago, rgrottk said:

Okay just had lunch will do the test as you indicated.... battery is showing 12.3 volts. Thanks for the reply... stay tuned

Okay chk'd  the voltage across the two yellow wires (one meter lead to each 30.8 VAC.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,475]

Model 91-08K801

We do not have a copy of the early production operators manual but this later one should be suitable.

Scroll down the page to the links.

 

Garry

[Rob R 951]

2 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

Model 91-08K801

We do not have a copy of the early production operators manual but this later one should be suitable.

Scroll down the page to the links.

 

Garry

Super information..... thanks much Garry....  also another update I got the PTO clutch to disengage by carefully inserting a putty knife around the perimeter....  so know I just need to see if the regulator - rectifier is bad, maybe Pfrederi can tell us with the voltage measurement I sent him above.... any one have one think the P/N is 101450.

[pfrederi 17,114]

Your AC voltage is very good.  If your battery voltage with the engine running is only 12.3 then the regulator is the most likely issue.  That you mentioned the battery was hooked up backward really makes me think the regulator has had it.  Wouldn't hurt to trace the wire from the B terminal of the regulator (probably an orange wire) to the ignition switch make sure it is good shape and also make sure the regulator housing is well grounded to the tractor.  If those ar OK looks like a new regulator is in your future

[Rob R 951]

So we are al d-d-d-d-d-done  I gave Ed Stoller a call and described the issue I was having with the regulator-rectifier.... he said before changing make sure it has a good ground and he hit it right on the head, when the PO painted the tractor he painted the area behind he regulator.... what I find amazing is that basically this tractor has NOT be charging for at least 5 years simply because the regulator - rectifier was NOT ground properly . To test the unit I didn't even bolt back together just held the unit to the cleaned surface with the tractor running  and the AMP gauge jumped immediately.   So my new little C-81 is 100% starting, running and charging like a champ......  Thanks you ALL and to Ed Stoller the Ignition King! 

[doc724 924]

Any time I do a restoration, I liberally use star washers under bolts or nuts to ensure a good ground connection.  Engine to chassis, fender to fender supports, fender supports to chassis, hood stand to chassis,  and solenoid and or regulator to hood stand if appropriate.  You do not have to use them under every nut or bolt, just one at each major interface.  They are cheap, makes a gas tight connection, and you do not have to sand off the paint and primer you so meticulously applied.