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Cadmandu

Tractors with hydraulics

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Cadmandu

Hi all, I know that the C-120 auto usually has a hydraulic system for attachment lifting usually on the left side down by your foot. My question is what other models have this/

Do all C120 and C160 automatics have the hydro pump? I want to buy a WH that has this option or standard equipment. Can this be added to any auto say 520A

TIA

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meadowfield

All the autos have a charge pump outlet certainly up to the C series. I'd assume the later blackhoods do too...

 

its just a matter of adding the plumbing

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pfrederi

Early C120 C160 had Sundstrand Hydros. (as did Chargers and Electros of all years) I believe the lift cylinder was standard on the C160 but optional on the C120...it was optional on Chargers but standard on electros).  As mentioned above you can add the lift cylinder to any Sunstrand hydro it does require an internal spring and shims.  You will also need a cylinder, hoses and control valve.  Easier to find a tractor that has it installed.

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Cadmandu

Good stuff you mentioned Sundstrand Hydros what if you had a 700 or 1100 Eaton?

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bmsgaffer

Eaton 700 cannot have attachment lift. Eaton 1100's ALMOST always came with a lift system already installed. There are a few exceptions to this in the 300 series I think. 

 

There is no 520A, but all 520H's had hydro lift.

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wrightorchid

There was also an electric lift option that was available, but often runs about $300 when found.

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Digger 66

Good thread ! 

I learned a lot already ......

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Cadmandu

Im glad my questions have purpose. What is a better buy C120 or C160 with hydro and hydraulics. Can u have an automatic and not have a hydro lift for your snow plow?

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DennisThornton

Good info here!  Please keep it up!

5 minutes ago, Cadmandu said:

Im glad my questions have purpose. What is a better buy C120 or C160 with hydro and hydraulics. Can u have an automatic and not have a hydro lift for your snow plow?

I was just told that often(sometimes?) a XXXA, 416A for example, would have hydro but have a manual lift, where a XXXH, 416H would have both hydro and hydraulic lift.  Didn't seem that held true all the time but lots of WH rules aren't absolute!

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Cadmandu

I just looked up the 416H has a twin Onan is the cast iron K better than the the Onan and is the Sunstrand better than the 1100 eaton? I don't want to start a mine is better than yours thing here, just can only buy one more WH and I want a a great old iron, old school really cool, tough machine of back in the day type.

Edited by Cadmandu

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roadapples

From what I`ve learned, mostly on here, the Onan or Kohler is a matter of preference. And although the Sundstrand is a good trans. most think the Eaton 1100 is nearly bulletproof...

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jdleach
1 hour ago, roadapples said:

From what I`ve learned, mostly on here, the Onan or Kohler is a matter of preference. And although the Sundstrand is a good trans. most think the Eaton 1100 is nearly bulletproof...

 

I am certainly not an expert on Wheels Horse autos, but can attest to the durability of the Eaton 1100. My C175 is about as worn out as a tractor can be and still run. Tach-Matic hitch points, brake lining, front spindles, wheel bearings, you name it. The one thing that appears to be good at this point is the Eaton hydro in it. All the blades were broken off of the cooling fan, and the oil and filter looked to be original, yet it still feels strong.

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DennisThornton

From what I've gathered the Eaton 1100 is the best hydro WH ever used, the best there was at the time, perhaps the best there is in that category.  I sure like the 2 speeds!

 

I have both Kohlers and an Onan and again, from what I've gather both are top notch, but perhaps the Onan was not as good a match for "lawn mowing" and doesn't shed leaves and grass clipping as well, a fact that I can indeed attest to!  And many have suggested that issue has caused most of the woes Onans have while powering the WHs.  Combine the reduced incoming air with the restricted outgoing by the belt guard and one cylinder can overheat.  The static debris guard on the Onan does seem to make a GREAT leaf catcher with every leaf you pass over trying to jump out of the sweep of the blades and land on it.  I must repeatedly rise up and wipe off the collection every few minutes where the Kohler's rotating debris guard flings off the desperate leaves to once again take their chances.

So my first choice for a WH would be a Kohler pushing an 8 speed!  B)

Second choice a Kohler pushing an Eaton 1100.

My 416H Onan will have a task other than mowing!  Seriously!  I would NOT make it my mowing machine!  It collects leaves and grass that bad!  Others have dealt with it as a mower but I have other mowers...

30 minutes ago, jdleach said:

 

I am certainly not an expert on Wheels Horse autos, but can attest to the durability of the Eaton 1100. My C175 is about as worn out as a tractor can be and still run. Tach-Matic hitch points, brake lining, front spindles, wheel bearings, you name it. The one thing that appears to be good at this point is the Eaton hydro in it. All the blades were broken off of the cooling fan, and the oil and filter looked to be original, yet it still feels strong.

Man that could be a Timex style ad for Eaton!  Seriously, that is a GREAT way to explain to "us" that your Eaton has taken a beatin' and still keeps on pushing!  Especially that "All the blades were broken off of the cooling fan" phrase!  I have just recently added a 264 to the herd, and while I like it a lot for good reasons, I will expect less of it than other's in the herd.  The PO told me the Tuff-Torq trans got into some mud and overheated to failure.  So note that Toro's price point offering, the 2XX series did NOT use the Eaton!

 

Thanks for sharing!

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Cadmandu

This is a really big eye opener for me some of the best info for someone WH shopping. I need to know what year and series can i look for with a 1100 Eaton, K series Kohler and Hydro and Hydro lift system.

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bmsgaffer

1980-1984 C-165 Automatic and C-145 Automatic are the only tractors that fit those specific requirements. 

 

However, if you are willing to look at the Kohler Magnums which were essentially the same as a K series but had a magneto ignition. That opens up your scope to include 1990 and newer 312-H and 314-H but some feel these engines are a BIT under powered running a Hydro with a big mower deck or snow blower. 

 

Also there are koher twins if you dont want to go Onan, like the C-175 Auto, 417-A, 418-A, 418-C. 

 

But in reality, the Onans are just fine for many people (and lots of people LOVE them!) They sound really cool, are VERY smooth running and have quite a bit of power. That will expand your search to all the newer 416-H's and 520-H's as well (of which there are very many of these around!)

 

I don't know if you have a specific reason to be going hydro, but most attachments are not unreasonable to use a hand-lift with (and some are even preferred, like mid-mount grader blade). The 8 speeds are just about bullet proof and for ground engaging work cant be beat. The hydros are smoother for cutting grass and (for me) plowing snow especially when converted to foot pedal control. That will expand your search immensely!

Edited by bmsgaffer
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shallowwatersailor

Since this is turning into a study of tractors, I thought that I would add a few things.

 

I have never owned a Sundstrand (yet!) but have a few Hydro tractors. Eaton only manufactured the transmission which was then installed on the three different transaxles made by Wheel Horse/Toro.

 

  • Tractors with an -A (but not all) normally used the 700 series transaxle with a manual lift. Onan and Kohler engines were used.
  • Tractors with a -H did use the 1100 series transaxle with hydraulic lift capability. Onan and Kohler engines were used. These can be plumbed to eliminate the lift if necessary. It would be best to take a chassis with a manual lift and install the 1100 if a manual lift was desired.
  • The 5xi series all used the Eaton 11 with a re-designed 1100 transaxle. Kohler, Kawasaki, and Daihatsu engines were used. This transaxle added Hi/Lo gears as well as a neutral position along with hydraulic lift and hydraulic power steering on three of the five models.

Regarding the 520-H gathering grass clippings while mowing, my 523Dxi with the water-cooled Daihatsu diesel does the same thing. But there are the three screens below the dash plus a removable fine mesh screen (last photo) in front of the radiator. My Kohler-engined 5xi don't have the same problem due to moving less air for cooling.

 

WP_20160612_001[1].jpg

 

WP_20160612_002[1].jpg

 

WP_20160612_004[1].jpg

 

WP_20160612_006[1].jpg

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BESTDOGEVER

The exception to the -a rule are 417&418 a those have 1100 Eaton and 518h has the 700. As far as the single cylinder kohler engine goes if push came to shove I would put my m-10 in the 518h and expect it to handle the hydro and the 48 inch deck no problem .

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pfrederi

as the odd guy here who has good luck with Techys and really likes Sundtrands over Eatons my $0.02.  For snow removal duties I really like the limited slip rear end in the Charger/Electro series they really move snow.  Also like the Sundstrands as even in the dead of winter they will pick up the plow or blower instantly so i can move outside to warm up without filling the shop with exhaust fumes.  The 418A was relieved of winter duty as even with Mobil1 in the rear end it took forever to pick up the blower and let me get her outside.

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T-Mo

Sundstrands all very durable and garden tractor manufacturers started using them over 50 years ago.  Most are still in original condition.  They are very strong units.

 

The Magnums were starting to be phased out in the late 80s and early 90s.  Most manufacturers have already started using the Kohler Command by that time.  Toro was a bit behind in putting the Commands in their tractors.  Nothing wrong with either the Magnum or the Command as both are Kohler's commercial grade engines.  Onan is also a commercial grade engine and are built to last.  Parts, though are a bit pricey.

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DennisThornton
7 hours ago, pfrederi said:

as the odd guy here who has good luck with Techys and really likes Sundtrands over Eatons my $0.02.  For snow removal duties I really like the limited slip rear end in the Charger/Electro series they really move snow.  Also like the Sundstrands as even in the dead of winter they will pick up the plow or blower instantly so i can move outside to warm up without filling the shop with exhaust fumes.  The 418A was relieved of winter duty as even with Mobil1 in the rear end it took forever to pick up the blower and let me get her outside.

You know!  It's guys like you that make it impossible to have anything Black and White!

Thank goodness for guys like you!  Without these points/counter-points this would be a very dull forum!  "even with Mobil1 in the rear end it took forever to pick up the blower"  That's a pretty significant observation to me!  

 

I can lock the diff on my NH TC-35 and it does make a HUGE difference so I would think the WH limited slip would be a nice feature.  I hear that feature fails when their springs weaken though.  You care to share any thoughts on that?  Seems the latest/greatest WH, the XIs would have included that feature.

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DennisThornton

Hard for me to say...  Would be nice to see more red paint instead of red rust...  Though is sure seems like you could build one nice one and have lots of spare parts!

 

If you have the time and DON'T expect to get paid nicely for your time then sure!  Or sell off some parts and build with what's left.  Are just looking for a workhorse?  Or a showhorse?  Lot's of work to get a showhorse!  Maybe not so much for a workhorse...

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ohiofarmer

On the electro 12 that I have, the deck lift works fine [haven't yet had a deck on it] and I see some linkage appearing to go to the rear  hitch. I do not understand how that works yet.

 

 i know where there is a snow blade that probably can be bought, but I own a Bobcat and do not need the blade for other than the cool factor

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BOB ELLISON
1 hour ago, Cadmandu said:

I can buy two C160's for 800.00 delivered please advise.

http://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/grd/5844292213.html

The C160 is a great machine I have 2 one I refixed I don't like to say I restored because I think of restored as like new condition. I use mine only for pushing stuff  like dirt and snow. And I also run synthetic in the trans and didn't have any problems with the sundstrand trans last year with a slow lift. I couldn't tell any difference summer or winter.if you want to really fix them up it is a lot of work but you will have a wonderful machine. C160 is my favorite tractor. Here is a before and after

20150813_205307.jpg

20151030_164311.jpg

Edited by BOB ELLISON
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Cadmandu

Let's all work on this together. I assume that you can have a hydro and still no lift correct. This is what I want. I want yours too Bob

 

Hydro Lifts Eaton and Sunstrand

 

 

 

 

 

Tractor Model

Year's Sold

Engine

Transmission Manuf

 

 

 

 

C-120

74/77

K301AS

Sundstrand

C-125

80/84

K301AS

Eaton 1100

C-145

80/84

K321AS

Eaton 1100

C-160

74/77

K/T

Sundstrand

C-161

78/79

K/B

Sundstrand

C-165

80/81

K341AS

 

C-175

80/83

KT-17

Eaton 1100

C-195

82/84

KT-19S

S/E

312H

90/92

M12S

Eaton 1100

314H

90

M14

Eaton 1100

416H

85/89

M12

Eaton 1100

417

85/86

KT-17QS

Eaton 1100

518H

 

 

 

520HC

 

 

Eaton 1100

520A

 

 

Eaton 1100

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Black Hoods

Years

80/84

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

hydro-static transmission and hydraulic lift

 

004-1.jpg

Hydro Lifts Eaton and Sunstrand.xlsx

Edited by Cadmandu
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bmsgaffer

For your chart:

 

The C-195's were all Eaton 1100. 

 

The early 1980 C automatics (blackhoods) were sundstrand, late 1980 up to 1984 were Eatons. 

 

There is no 520A, only 520H

 

516H and 518H were eaton 700's

 

All the A's were usually eaton 700's except the 417A and 418A (and there are a select few of the 300 series A models that made it out as 1100's too but no definitive on that)

 

Many sundstrands had lifts, many did not I don't know if there is a differentiating factor that determined which had which. ALL Eaton 700's had manual lift, MOST eaton 1100's had hydro lift (but there are examples of some 1100's having manual lift)

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