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jellyghost

Toro wheel horse questions

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jellyghost

In the "newer" Toro wheel horses that still resemble tractors, what was the major difference between the 300 series, 400 series, and 500 series?

How much tighter is the turning radius on these tractors compared to my 78 C-101?

Did Wheel Horse or Toro re-do the attachment system at some point?  So after a certain date older attachments no longer worked with the newer models?

Thanks!

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Sparky

I'm assuming you mean a Toro/Wheel Horse classic. Turning radius should be the same as your C-101. The attach-a-matic attachments from 1973 right up to present fit both your C-101 or a new style classic.

  Mike.....

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jellyghost

That's great news!  Is there a difference between 300, 400, and 500 like the significant difference between a 78 C series and a D series tractor?

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MalMac

The 300,400 are basically the same tractor as the 78 and newer C series. The 500 series have the same transmission and frame for the most part. They changed the upper hoodstand and dash also the hood. On the 500 series from 90 on had forward swept front axels. In 91 they added sterring reduction for easier turning with larger attachments that were designed for the 500 series. Those attachments will fit the C series to, but need more hp to run them. The 78 C's were the beginning of the finale basic design of the Wheel horse. Hope this helps you a tad bit. There is one exception to the rule and that's the C195. Same concept but different beast. I think it came out in 82.

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Tonyp

Let me chime in,the newer TORO Wheel  Horse Classic 315-8 does not just resemble the earlier series, they ARE indeed a newer manufacture of the previous 300 Series. I  own a 310-8 , a C-81 and a Toro / Wheel Horse  315-8, they are the exact same tractor frame and body, They placed a Command Series  Kohler motor on the 315-8 and some added safety items but at the end of the day it's just a re-issue of the 300 series.  It is not just similar ,it is not  almost the same, it doesn't just look the same, it is indeed the 300 Series manufactured again for a short period, I believe 2002 to 2006.   Toro should never have stopped this Classic 300 Series Wheel Horse manufacturing line as the markets are now void of anything close to the hi quality and the ruggedness of this Garden Tractor.  It is the real deal.  Had they left the TORO name off the hood and fender  stickers, the world would see and recognize a 300 Series Wheel Horse. 

 

As stated above, ALL of the C Series , 300,400 , 500 and Toro/Wheel Horse  Classic 315-8 Series attachments that use the Attach-A-Matic  system can be used with any and all of the Tractors. 

 

Maybe someone at Toro should take a tour of the  box store lawn tractors and also visit the John Deere dealer so they can get an idea of what is now totally missing from the market . Even JD  is no longer making a similar machine unless you get into the 500 series. I guarantee that home owners with larger lots and other chores other than cutting grass who pay   $3000 for a machine that will maybe last  6 to 8 years will think twice  about doing that again after it falls apart.  

 

You put a REAL Garden Tractor built on a massive  frame next to anything out there in the BOX stores and it is no longer about money. 

 

It appears that the corporate plan these days, including Toro and JD,  is to only build  lawn tractors that last 5 to 7 years. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Tonyp
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T-Mo

I don't think Toro wants in the garden tractor business anymore.  After they shut down the Wheel Horse line in 2007, they contracted MTD to build their lawn and garden tractors.  Now that's come to a close also.  Toro still builds zero turns and walk behinds, plus their Dingo machines and they own Exmark, so they're in the commercial landscape business big time.  But I don't think they want back in the residential L&G tractors at this time.  Toro shutting down the Wheel Horse line is both a blessing and a curse.  The latter is easily seen as there are no more new Wheel Horses, but the former is harder for us to comprehend.  I'm afraid if they continue making them, the design would change for less expensive manufacturing processes, which means more plastic, more components being made elsewhere (no more Uni-Drive transaxles, but aluminum cast transaxles from Tuff Torq and other manufacturers), less expensive engines, etc.  It's what I would call, Catch 22.

 

You can still get the Case designed big wheel tractors from Ingersoll, but they're expensive.  Simplicity and John Deere still make quality, long lasting garden tractors, but they're expensive.  If Toro still made the Wheel Horse Classic, it would be very expensive to make, therefore it wouldn't be cheap to the consumer.

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jellyghost

Thank you for this discussion.  It has helped me a lot.  I no longer want a newer wheel horse, but I am glad to know my attachments would work on one.  

 

On the subject of Toro stepping aways from Garden Tractors, what was the price of the last wheel horse classic built?  I am just wondering how it priced compared to todays quality tractors.

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Tonyp
16 minutes ago, jellyghost said:

Thank you for this discussion.  It has helped me a lot.  I no longer want a newer wheel horse, but I am glad to know my attachments would work on one.  

 

On the subject of Toro stepping aways from Garden Tractors, what was the price of the last wheel horse classic built?  I am just wondering how it priced compared to todays quality tractors.

 

 

On the paperwork that came with the  2004 /315-8 that I recently acquired, the sale price was $4300 back then. Pretty hefty price I would agree, but here it is 12 years later and it still runs and LOOKS like brand new.  

 

I certainly agree with T-MO's comments above and if  Toro was indeed still making the Classic Wheel Horse Series today I suspect it would be equal in price , or more, that the top of the line JD 500 machine.  And obviously  people will justify paying $2500 today for a spiffy looking 22HP Lawn Tractor from the box store rather than paying 5 grand for a real Garden Tractor that will last 4 times longer than one of those spiffy 22 HP machines for $2500. 

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elcamino/wheelhorse

My :twocents-02cents: I own and use a 74 C-120 Auto, 87 310-8 and a 88 416-8 . The attachments work on all 3 , and the newer horses have way too many safety switches. If a switch goes bad get the mutli meter out start tracing. ( Not my favorite thing to do ). I like the 87 and 88 due to the gear trans. There are some differences in tire and front rim sizes on the 87 and 88 but all 3 a build like tanks compared to the box store products. I have a 72 Commando 800 that needs and engine and if the true be told that is my favorite :wh:. It fits my Butt and as we all know that is important.

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bmsgaffer
1 hour ago, jellyghost said:

Thank you for this discussion.  It has helped me a lot.  I no longer want a newer wheel horse, but I am glad to know my attachments would work on one.  

 

On the subject of Toro stepping aways from Garden Tractors, what was the price of the last wheel horse classic built?  I am just wondering how it priced compared to todays quality tractors.

 

Just curious, on what grounds do you no longer want a newer wheel horse? :scratchead: As others have stated, the classic series built up to the late 2000's were functionally exactly the same as the early models. 

 

I have a 1961, 1964, 1981, and 1998 XI model. I had a 1994. The 1973 - 2007 C series, 300,400,500 series models are nearly exactly the same except the body work. (as an aside, they must have been doing something right for a tractor platform to go unchanged for 34 years and not be radically changed for 46 years!)

 

I know most people "judge a book by its cover" on the XI series. They look like a softened up box store tractor, but they have a HUGE formed steel frame; all steel body work; shaft driven, two-speed!, foot controlled Eaton hydro; cast iron unidrive rear end; and -other than attachment availability- is superior to my 520H i had in MANY ways. 522xi weight is approx 1100 lbs vs 520H approx 600lbs

 

I am definitely NOT trying to argue with your beliefs, I just want to make sure you aren't mis-informed. I want everyone to appreciate ALL the wheel horse tractors, and many gloss over the (admittedly not the prettiest) XI's. :D 

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Tonyp
16 minutes ago, bmsgaffer said:

 

 

2 hours ago, jellyghost said:

Thank you for this discussion.  It has helped me a lot.  I no longer want a newer wheel horse, but I am glad to know my attachments would work on one.  

 

 

 I would not walk from a  good deal on a clean low hours 315-8.  The new era  added safety things are not near as bad as many say they are.  I would NOT let them cloud your mind away from a purchase of a 315-8 .

 

we acquired a 2004 several weeks back with 400 hrs on it, it has become #1, the 29 year old 310 will have to get over it . Looking past the safety switches which many can be over-ridden should you choose to,  the  Tractor is great !   

Edited by Tonyp
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MalMac

Everybody is hitting all around the subject but no one has said. It's a disposable world out there. There is no more room for a piece of equipment such as a Wheel Horse in this world. As much as we would like it to be, this is the world in which we live now. You even see it in big trucks and farm equipment now. It's use it then throw it away. 

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T-Mo
23 minutes ago, MalMac said:

Everybody is hitting all around the subject but no one has said. It's a disposable world out there. There is no more room for a piece of equipment such as a Wheel Horse in this world. As much as we would like it to be, this is the world in which we live now. You even see it in big trucks and farm equipment now. It's use it then throw it away. 

I made that exact same statement on a similar thread not too long ago.  Manufacturers are giving what the consumer wants, which is an inexpensive mower to cut their grass and do other light duty.  I talked to a couple of guys who buy and repair lawn equipment and they both said the same thing.  They can't sell an order garden tractor, regardless of brand, at that the tractor is worth.  Their potential buyers tell them, why should they pay that much if one at Walmart costs the same or less.  It doesn't matter it that Walmart mower will quit and become fodder for the scrap heap in a couple of years.  They will just go buy another one.

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wallfish
4 minutes ago, MalMac said:

Everybody is hitting all around the subject but no one has said. It's a disposable world out there. There is no more room for a piece of equipment such as a Wheel Horse in this world. As much as we would like it to be, this is the world in which we live now. You even see it in big trucks and farm equipment now. It's use it then throw it away. 

Definitely agree but as much as I love my well built Wheel Horse tractors, I highly doubt I'd ever buy a brand new $6000+ garden tractor. I'm guilty of the throw away mentality too because I could get 6 brand new cheapie tractors for the same price. 5 years outta each one equals 30 years. I'll be dead and gone by then so I'll just get 3 and save the 3 grand.

The Wheel Horse would certainly out live them all but does require some repairs to keep to it going, especially with the crappy ethanol gas.

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Sparky

As far as those added safety features go...they were not added over the years to provide headaches but rather to keep folks from chopping off their toes (for example). My wife, son and daughter all are able to use my tractors. I like many of the added safety features, gives me a bit of "peace of mind" while my family is using my mowing machines (Wheel Horse and Craftsman).

  I don't think safety features should deter the decision to buy a newer machine.

  Mike.........

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cleat

My first 520 came from work.

 

I worked for DuPont at the time and this machine in their eyes did not have enough safety switches.

Machine was only used to blow snow with a 2 stage blower.

 

They bought a new Cub to replace it.

 

The only additional safety features the cub really has is the foot control where everything stops when you lift your foot (the 520 now has this, thanks Matt), and the reverse lockout that stops the blower when you reverse (more of a curse than a safety as you don't realize it has stopped until you drive into the snow again and plug up the non-turning blower).

 

Cub has been to the shop many times due to a broken flywheel where the shaft drive connects, charge coil replacement, leaky hydro, broken plastic seat mount.

Blower has been replaced because the flimsy sheet metal got so bent it could not be straightened.

 

This is a top of the line unit that cost in excess of $10,000.00.

 

The old 520 is still working fine.

 

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Tonyp

 

3 hours ago, MalMac said:

Everybody is hitting all around the subject but no one has said. It's a disposable world out there. There is no more room for a piece of equipment such as a Wheel Horse in this world. As much as we would like it to be, this is the world in which we live now. You even see it in big trucks and farm equipment now. It's use it then throw it away. 

 

I certainly agree  , who wouldn't ?  , I think I said something along those lines way above, maybe not exact but close.

 

9 hours ago, Tonyp said:

 It appears that the corporate plan these days, including Toro and JD,  is to only build  lawn tractors that last 5 to 7 years. 

 

It's really sad...

 

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SylvanLakeWH

May be interested in my May 2nd post titled:

 

TORO Response to Website Timeline Inquiry

 

(Sorry - don't know how to post a link to it)...

 

Had a lot of similar feedback...Still amazes me how WH is not really included in TORO's history...

 

 

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WVHillbilly520H
6 hours ago, MalMac said:

Everybody is hitting all around the subject but no one has said. It's a disposable world out there. There is no more room for a piece of equipment such as a Wheel Horse in this world. As much as we would like it to be, this is the world in which we live now. You even see it in big trucks and farm equipment now. It's use it then throw it away. 

Along with this ,when the Xi's were selling new ($10k+ for the 523DXI) the proliferation of compact and sub compact 4WD utility tractors for $12-15k with a FEL and 3pt hitch,so if you can/could afford $10k for the 2WD DXi plus attachments then why not $2-3k more for 4WD FEL PTO driven MMM and 3pt rear hitch and rear PTO ect, which most people than can has done which killed the L&G market, I like my 22 hp Kioti with FEL and it can do things the 520s can't but then it's really not a lawnmower or a farm tractor,so back to the old adage a tractor of the right size for the job, the more the better right fellas? ...Jeff...and just my :twocents-02cents: Toro didn't hurt Wheel Horse (all mine are) they kept them going well into 2000s they just couldn't compete profitably against the box store (MTD) and C.U.T. segments...

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JAinVA

 I remember going into the local WH dealer in the late nineties or early 2000s and seeing machines that cost well over 4500 dollars.

I thought they were nice machines but way more than I could justify spending.If the current crop of homeowner wants to ride while cutting grass then he or she has a lot of cost friendly choices.If they have very large areas of grass then the zturns will mow circles around the current riders or the old WH's.If heavier tasks need to be handled such as tilling or loading then the Cuts or Scuts are there if you have the money.

To me my WH's are like the swiss army knife.They are capable of doing a multitude of tasks well, without costing huge amounts of money.With that said when the Horses aren't up to the task out comes something bigger.Just saying.JAinVA

Edited by JAinVA
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jellyghost
10 hours ago, bmsgaffer said:

 

Just curious, on what grounds do you no longer want a newer wheel horse? :scratchead: As others have stated, the classic series built up to the late 2000's were functionally exactly the same as the early models. 

...

I am definitely NOT trying to argue with your beliefs, I just want to make sure you aren't mis-informed. I want everyone to appreciate ALL the wheel horse tractors, and many gloss over the (admittedly not the prettiest) XI's. :D 

 

I already have a nice running C-101, and if I understand correctly, the Toro classics are functionally equivalent with the older wheel horse tractors.  I wanted a new one if it had a tighter turning radius or some other clear benefit.  Otherwise, I would probably like a 70s era D series as a second tractor.  The newer wheel horses that look like standard riding mowers just don't have the right feel to get me excited.

Edited by jellyghost
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Sparky
1 minute ago, jellyghost said:

 

I already have a nice running C-101, and if I understand correctly, the Toro classics are functionally equivalent with the older wheel horse tractors.  I wanted a new one if it had a tighter turning radius or some other clear benefit.  Otherwise, I would probably like 70s era D series as a second tractor.  The newer wheel horses that look like standard riding mowers just don't have the right feel to get me excited.

If a tight turning radius is important to ya a "D" series will be very disappointing.

  Mike....

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jellyghost

Why isn't there a market for $4k Garden Tractors?  Maybe it is because of professionalization and specialization.

 

I am a landlord, and I have 5 100+ year old buildings (duplexes and single family homes).  Every one of the old buildings has a toilet in the middle of an unfinished basement.  I asked one of my contractors "Why is the basement toilet always here?," and he had an interesting theory.  He said that people used to work extremely hard on their yards.  They didn't want to track mud in the house, and they used the basement toilet.  I don't really know if he is right or wrong, but I think he is right about how people used to work on lawns.

In addition, many young professionals are renting dwellings even when they probably should be buying.  There are many theories on why millenials rent, but I wonder if they rent because they are mystified by basic handyman jobs.  They are ignorant about basic plumbing, electrical, carpentry etc... If they can't even do the basics, maybe they should rent and let it be someone else's problem.  This dynamic contributes to professionalization.  So maybe there is a lowend market, and a high end market for lawn equipment.  The middle market for handy guys working on weekends just isn't there anymore.

I bought a vintage garden tractor because it cost $750 with all the extras.  It is awesome, and I get excited about using it.  But... I could never justify a 4k machine.  I would just hire out my lawn care instead of purchasing the machine.

Edited by jellyghost
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bmsgaffer
19 minutes ago, jellyghost said:

 

I already have a nice running C-101, and if I understand correctly, the Toro classics are functionally equivalent with the older wheel horse tractors.  I wanted a new one if it had a tighter turning radius or some other clear benefit.  Otherwise, I would probably like a 70s era D series as a second tractor.  The newer wheel horses that look like standard riding mowers just don't have the right feel to get me excited.

 

Ah! It is a visual thing. Makes sense. 

 

The XI's DO have a tighter turning radius if you care to jump into another series, but then you have to have mostly all different accessories. :handgestures-thumbupright:

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