Raider Belt Guide Adjustment

[MacGarage 13]

I am having a hard time getting my Raider's belt guide adjusted so the gears will not grind.

 

In the manual, it states to use pliers but not having luck getting it close enough to hold the belt to shift the gears.

 

The one I am trying to adjust is actually attached to the brake pedal linkage.

 

[Ed Kennell 35,603]

22 minutes ago, MacGarage said:

 

 

The one I am trying to adjust is actually attached to the brake pedal linkage.

 

The tabs you should be adjusting are attached to the belt guard as shown in the photo you posted.

[MacGarage 13]

Thanks...so the part that pushed down on the belt when you press the pedal does not adjust? It is not stopping the belt. Instead of bending the tabs, would I adjust the linkage off the brake pedal (#48) that goes to the clutch arm pivot since the drum brake may already be applied...if that makes sense.

 

 

Edited September 18, 2016 by MacGarage

[Ed Kennell 35,603]

The brake pedal if adjusted properly will lock the brake drum and lock the transaxle, stopping the tractor from moving.

This brake pedal has no influence on the transmission input pulley which must be stopped to shift gears.

The device(s) that stop the belt from moving and the input pulley from turning are those two tabs at the front end of the belt guard.

When you depress the clutch and the belt goes slack, those tabs create enough friction to stop the belt and input pulley from moving and allow you to shift gears.

If the belt is not going slack when you depress the clutch. there are several potential problems which we can help you resolve with more information.

Did this problem start when you changed the drive belt?  Belt too short or installed on wrong side of idler pulley.

Did this problem start suddenly for no apparent reason?  Item 44 spring pin may have sheared .

 

Edited September 18, 2016 by Ed Kennell

[stevasaurus 22,229]

Once you adjust any tabs, you still need to have the belt guard mounted.  It funnels the slack toward the engine pulley. 

 

[Don1977 604]

Get the belt to stop is not instantaneous, give it a little time and you will have less gear grinding. I know I get in too big of a hurry changing gears sometimes.

[MacGarage 13]

4 hours ago, Ed Kennell said:

The brake pedal if adjusted properly will lock the brake drum and lock the transaxle, stopping the tractor from moving.

This brake pedal has no influence on the transmission input pulley which must be stopped to shift gears.

The device(s) that stop the belt from moving and the input pulley from turning are those two tabs at the front end of the belt guard.

When you depress the clutch and the belt goes slack, those tabs create enough friction to stop the belt and input pulley from moving and allow you to shift gears.

If the belt is not going slack when you depress the clutch. there are several potential problems which we can help you resolve with more information.

Did this problem start when you changed the drive belt?  Belt too short or installed on wrong side of idler pulley.

Did this problem start suddenly for no apparent reason?  Item 44 spring pin may have sheared .

 

 

Thanks all for the help...

 

I did adjust the tabs and it was probably even a bit too much as I got a bit of smoke from the belt.

 

The belt is not loosening up enough to stop the belt as the input pulley is still turning as is the belt when the pedal is fully depressed. It does loosen up some but not that much.

 

The grinding and hard to engage happened over time. I still have the original belt on.

 

The last time I used it (a week ago) it was to pull a sprayer and I ended up using the hi-low to for a rare time so not sure if that had anything to do with it. I did recently replace the brake strap lining.

 

As it sits, I cannot get it into gear while running.

 

I did check for the roll pin-#44 and it is still there.

 

I did take an image of the brake side before I replaced the lining...this is how it looks now but with a new lining.

Edited September 19, 2016 by MacGarage

[Ed Kennell 35,603]

From the info you have supplied, I am leaning towards the item 44 pin being sheared.    If it shears, you will still see the two ends of the sheared pin, but the pin will be in three pieces allowing the shaft to turn in the lever and not releasing the idler tensioning pulley on the belt.  To check this, with the clutch pedal up, draw a line across the end of the lever and shaft.  Then with the clutch fully depressed, check the line to see if the lever has slipped on the shaft.

[MacGarage 13]

12 hours ago, Ed Kennell said:

From the info you have supplied, I am leaning towards the item 44 pin being sheared.    If it shears, you will still see the two ends of the sheared pin, but the pin will be in three pieces allowing the shaft to turn in the lever and not releasing the idler tensioning pulley on the belt.  To check this, with the clutch pedal up, draw a line across the end of the lever and shaft.  Then with the clutch fully depressed, check the line to see if the lever has slipped on the shaft.

Unfortunately, after marking the shaft and lever, the pin is fine.

 

Watching the input pulley, when the clutch pedal is fully depressed, the belt does loosen some but it never stops and the input pulley never seems to slow down. Is the belt and pulley supposed to fully stop when the pedal is depressed? The belt is tight when normally operating.

 

To double check, I disconnected the brake strap where I replaced the lining, just to make sure I did not have any issues there. The clutch pedal travel was much more but it did not change the loosening of the belt.

 

I do have it idling a bit higher than normal but it has been like that for years.

 

Looking back, the slight grinding was a little gradual and during my last use, it was difficult to get into gear. As it sits now, it will not engage into gear.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2016 by MacGarage

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,478]

You do have the belt guard installed? The belt must be supported by the lower lip on the guard when the clutch is pushed down. Once it lands on the lip the belt slack is forced to the engine drive pulley so it will slip on the pulley.

 

Garry

[MacGarage 13]

19 minutes ago, gwest_ca said:

You do have the belt guard installed? The belt must be supported by the lower lip on the guard when the clutch is pushed down. Once it lands on the lip the belt slack is forced to the engine drive pulley so it will slip on the pulley.

 

Garry

Thanks..

 

Yes, the belt guard was installed.

 

The image below is from eBay but I do not recall seeing the tab that I assume presses up on the belt when the clutch is pressed. I will need to take the cover off to see.

 

If it is missing, can I just bolt on something that will press on the belt when the clutch is released?

 

I have a 1968 Raider 10.

 

[stevasaurus 22,229]

Let's see what your belt guide looks like first.  You might try cleaning the grooves in all 3 pulleys with steel wool and mineral spirits.  The belt could be grabbing the pulleys when the belt is actually supposed to be somewhat slippery.  Remember the tension pulley is just that...it puts the tension on and off the belt and the belt cover funnels the slack in the belt toward the engine pulley. 

[MacGarage 13]

1 hour ago, stevasaurus said:

Let's see what your belt guide looks like first.  You might try cleaning the grooves in all 3 pulleys with steel wool and mineral spirits.  The belt could be grabbing the pulleys when the belt is actually supposed to be somewhat slippery.  Remember the tension pulley is just that...it puts the tension on and off the belt and the belt cover funnels the slack in the belt toward the engine pulley. 

 

Okay...here is my cover and it is missing the bracket on the eBay one. There is no sign of it being there so if it was there, it would have been gone for a long time. That would make sense with the grinding appearing over time.

 

I also attached images of the belt and tensioner.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2016 by MacGarage

[stevasaurus 22,229]

I think I would try to pop rivet a piece like in your 1st picture...it sure can't hurt.  Try cleaning those pulleys, it could be that.  Also, are you sure that is the correct belt?? 

[MacGarage 13]

Thanks...

 

I believe it is the original factory belt still.

 

I have had the tractor for a few years and it has been flawless until recently.

[stevasaurus 22,229]

You know, you might try to clean the belt in mineral spirits also...by wiping it.  It does not make since that all worked good before and you did not change anything or see anything that is broke.  It almost has to be dirt and grime on pulleys and belt.    Looking at your pictures, it almost does look like an angled piece was there.  could be the light.

Edited September 19, 2016 by stevasaurus

[Ed Kennell 35,603]

Does your tensioning idler pulley completely disengage from the belt when you depress the clutch?  Can we get a picture of that?   If it does clear the belt, then I am thinking the missing angled belt guide is allowing the upper half of the belt to sag enough to keep the belt engaged with the engine drive pulley that is in turn keeping the belt moving causing the shifting problem.

With the belt guard off and the clutch depressed and the engine running, I would use two dowel rods to simulate the bottom tab on the guard and the missing belt support piece and see if I could cause the belt to stop moving when the belt is supported.

[MacGarage 13]

The first image has the clutch pressed normally, with the brake band on.

 

The second image is with the clutch pedal as far as it will go with the brake band off.

 

With the cover on, with the tensioner in either position, the input pulley and belt was moving at a good speed.

 

I cannot see any signs of spot welds on the cover where a part may be missing.

[stevasaurus 22,229]

I don't know what is going on, but do you see the rust in those pulleys?  That should be smooth and clean...that is grabbing your belt.  Please clean those pulleys up and wipe them with mineral spirits...if nothing else...it will help!!    I'm done trying to help you until you do this.

[raider9 40]

I have a 68 raider 9 model 1-6931. I recently ran into the same issue and it also seemed to happen gradually. I've read three or four other posts of people having the same issue as well. My tractor didn't have the tab on the guard or any sign of one ever being there. I've not been able to figure out why, but I think somehow a batch of these got off the line without the tab? I don't know that this could be true but I fixed mine by doing the following: 

 

1) installing a bolt that extends from the frame out towards the belt guard. It's a bit redneck but it works great. I drilled a hole in the frame and ran the bolt from the inside out. Then I ran a nut down the bolt to lock it in place. The bolt has to be located in a way that the idler/tension pulley will pinch the belt between the bolt and the bracket on the back of the pulley. The bolt basically acts as the tab that's missing on the guard. An easier, less redneck fix, would be just to buy the belt guard with the tab and install it. whatever works for you

 

2) I found that If I had the tabs bent to close to the belt it didn't work very well at all, even with the modification I made. They need to be spaced out a little from the belt. There purpose is not to stop the belt but rather to help hold it off of the PTO pulley on the engine when the clutch pedal is pressed. When the clutch is pressed in, the belt should stop completely and slip inside of the PTO pulley.

 

I hope this helps you and good luck!!

[MacGarage 13]

53 minutes ago, raider9 said:

I have a 68 raider 9 model 1-6931. I recently ran into the same issue and it also seemed to happen gradually. I've read three or four other posts of people having the same issue as well. My tractor didn't have the tab on the guard or any sign of one ever being there. I've not been able to figure out why, but I think somehow a batch of these got off the line without the tab? I don't know that this could be true but I fixed mine by doing the following: 

 

1) installing a bolt that extends from the frame out towards the belt guard. It's a bit redneck but it works great. I drilled a hole in the frame and ran the bolt from the inside out. Then I ran a nut down the bolt to lock it in place. The bolt has to be located in a way that the idler/tension pulley will pinch the belt between the bolt and the bracket on the back of the pulley. The bolt basically acts as the tab that's missing on the guard. An easier, less redneck fix, would be just to buy the belt guard with the tab and install it. whatever works for you

 

2) I found that If I had the tabs bent to close to the belt it didn't work very well at all, even with the modification I made. They need to be spaced out a little from the belt. There purpose is not to stop the belt but rather to help hold it off of the PTO pulley on the engine when the clutch pedal is pressed. When the clutch is pressed in, the belt should stop completely and slip inside of the PTO pulley.

 

I hope this helps you and good luck!!

Thanks!

 

Actually I was thinking along the same lines. I found some stainless bolts with sleeves and was going to recreate the tab on the cover...if it did not work, try and pick up a cover if no other fixes help out.

 

I will be cleaning the pulleys!

 

 

[MacGarage 13]

I broke down and ordered the cover with the tab.

 

I will update once I receive it and as to if having the tab repairs the problem.

 

Thanks!

 

[MacGarage 13]

Fixed!

 

The replacement cover with the tab seems to have fixed it.

 

The image shows the replacement one with the tab (top) and the old one. For reference, I paid $29 shipped for the cover and think I was lucky to find one quicky.

 

The shifting is noticeably smoother without any grinding. I think over time I had gotten used to the sloppiness and the grinding was something that I had gotten used to the couple of uses it occurred. It is the original 48 year old belt so perhaps the age of the belt had an effect on the shifting over time. I still cannot see where a tab was prior but perhaps it fell off at some point or was never there.

 

Thanks for the help...I doubt I would have fixed it without the help!

 

 

Edited September 23, 2016 by MacGarage

[stevasaurus 22,229]

Did you ever clean those pulleys...you know I just have to ask. 

[MacGarage 13]

1 minute ago, stevasaurus said:

Did you ever clean those pulleys...you know I just have to ask. 

 

I did! I used some brake clean and steel wool that was sitting just a couple feet away...no excuses! They were pretty clean but there were areas that had some rust.

 

Thanks!