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DougQT

C-101 starting issue

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DougQT

Hello all, My name is Doug and I am new to the group as of today. A little background on my project. My dad bought a new C-101 back in 1979 just before I was born. He literally washed and waxed it more than his cars. Sometime in the early 90's something happened and the 10 hp Kohler seized up. Tractor sat for a number of years (dad is not mechanically inclined), kids go to college, college is expensive, dad sells the Wheel Horse. Fast forward 20 years and he still regrets selling it, but my brothers and I found the exact same model for sale and bought it. Now we are in the process of restoring it. Previous owner said it ran fine, but the solenoid was bad and it hadn't been started for a while. I removed the gas tank and drained the old fuel (still disconected). Put in a new battery and solenoid and turned the key and the engine spun right over. Sprayed a little starting fluid in the carb and turned the key, but no fire. Pulled the spark and set it on the engine and turned the key and had plenty of spark. Dripped some fuel in the spark plug hole, put the plug back in and turned the key. Still no fire, just spinning. Any thoughts? Also, when I turn the key and then release it, the engine continues to spin for awhile. Is there a compression release on these? Any thoughts on what my issue could be?

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kudzu3

I'm certainly no expert, but I believe I'd start with a good carb cleaning. You may try spraying the starter fluid into the carb as you crank. I Hate to say this but if the engine continues to spin, there could be more serious problems.:(

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Ed Kennell

You need fuel, fire and compression.  Sounds like you do not have compression.   You probably have a valve stuck open. Pull the crankcase  vent assembly ( behind the carburetor ) off and check if the valves are opening and closing properly.  

If this is the problem, you may be able to remove the head and loosen the valve with some gentle tapping with a mallet.

Document the position of all the breather parts during the disassemble.  It is easy to get the assembly wrong.

Take pictures and keep us posted.

Edited by Ed Kennell
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N3PUY

I would guess a valve stuck open.    Take the plug out and put a finger in the hole, crank it over and see if you have compression.  

Not too difficult to remove the head.  

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oldredrider

Clean the points with a file. Set point gap to .018. Get a NEW spark plug and see what happens then.

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DougQT

Thanks for the quick replies. It's hard when you buy something used and haven't heard it run. The owner said it ran but the solenoid went bad, so he replaced it but the new solenoid didn't work and he never got back to it. The solenoid was clearly brand new, and was defective, as it spun as soon as I replaced it. I'm assuming he would not have replaced the solenoid if the engine was shot. Is there anything I need to pull the head if need be? Do these have a head gasket? Worked on lots of car engines, but never a tractor engine. The help is greatly appreciated. The engine is a K241AS.

 

Edited by DougQT
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Elkskin's mower junkyard
18 minutes ago, DougQT said:

Thanks for the quick replies. It's hard when you buy something used and haven't heard it run. The owner said it ran but the solenoid went bad, so he replaced it but the new solenoid didn't work and he never got back to it. The solenoid was clearly brand new, and was defective, as it spun as soon as I replaced it. I'm assuming he would not have replaced the solenoid if the engine was shot. Is there anything I need to pull the head if need be? Do these have a head gasket? Worked on lots of car engines, but never a tractor engine. The help is greatly appreciated. The engine is a K241AS.

 

yes these have head gaskets

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kudzu3

Yea Doug, I know how it is. The head is no problem to pull, all you need is a ratchet and maybe a rubber mallet. I had zero experience when I pulled my first. Yes, I would replace the gasket and be sure to torque the head bolts according to specs, and in the correct order. Be sure to clean everything before you put it all back together. Good luck :)

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DougQT

Ok, so the pulled the head and spun the flywheel, and piston doesn't move. How bad a shape am I in. I am very mechanically inclined, but have never torn down tractor engine. Difficulty rating? Special tools required? I have access to a second engine, but it smokes, so I would probably have to do at least rings on the other one.

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Elkskin's mower junkyard
2 minutes ago, DougQT said:

Ok, so the pulled the head and spun the flywheel, and piston doesn't move. How bad a shape am I in. I am very mechanically inclined, but have never torn down tractor engine. Difficulty rating? Special tools required? I have access to a second engine, but it smokes, so I would probably have to do at least rings on the other one.

broken rod

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DougQT

Yup. How hard is it to fix?

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953 nut

:WRS:    Sorry to hear you were mislead, with basic tools and a bit of help from members here you can do it. Take a look at some of the prior threads on here by searching "Engine Rebuild" or similar topics. This manual should help too.

Kohler_Guide_To_Engine_Rebuilding_19890900 (1) (1).pdf

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DougQT

This what I would need? Could the broken rod have damaged anything else? The cylinder wall looks nice and clean. it is not seized. Tapped the piston with my finger and it dropped 1/2 an inch.

Screen Shot 2016-08-21 at 1.33.11 PM.png

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Elkskin's mower junkyard

should be it. pull engine pop pan inspact everything alot of time when rod blows it takes cam with

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953 nut
2 minutes ago, DougQT said:

This what I would need

I think you will want to pull the engine down prior to ordering parts. Chances are that kit will do the trick, but you will want to measure the crank and cylinder first. I have used kits from "bakt4kids and they are great.

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DougQT

What does it do to the cam? Is that difficult to replace? Is any machine work necessary to install that rebuild kit assuming the broken rod did not damage anything else? Sorry, lots of questions.

 

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Ed Kennell

Here is what I found inside my 875. all that I replaced was the $27 rod.   The piston, cylinder, and wrist pin all measured within specs.    It did take a lot of rubbing to get all the aluminum off the crank, but I did not have to remove the crank to do this...just the head and the pan.

Clean, clean, and clean.   Be careful not to scratch the head and block in the head gasket area when you remove the carbon.IMG_4589.JPGIMG_4578.JPGIMG_4579.JPG

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953 nut

If your cylinder is not badly worn or out of round and the crank shaft was not damaged you will be able to do the job with standard tools, augmented by a hone for the cylinder and a torque wrench. If the valves are to be replaced you will need a valve spring compressor and a valve lapping tool. Probably the special tools can be rented or borrowed from an auto parts store like Advance Auto Parts. Like Ed said, take it apart and inspect everything before you buy your parts.

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DougQT

I will pull the motor today. Hopefully nothing else was damaged. I will snap lots of pictures. Thanks for all of your help. Been texting with the guy who sold it to me. Told him the motor was broken. Refused to negotiate any refund, but offered to sell me another c-101 with a motor that smokes for $25 off the asking price. Said it ran when he parked it. Connecting rods don't break when the tractor isn't running, and whoever was operating it when it failed certainly knew that it happened.

 

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Ed Kennell
17 minutes ago, DougQT said:

Said it ran when he parked it.

 

True..He parked it when the rod broke. 

 

This is why I buy non running tractors as that ...........non runners that may need an engine or tranny or both.

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Elkskin's mower junkyard
1 hour ago, DougQT said:

What does it do to the cam? Is that difficult to replace? Is any machine work necessary to install that rebuild kit assuming the broken rod did not damage anything else? Sorry, lots of questions.

 

it could break cam in half

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DougC

Been following your thread with much interest. First Hello and :text-welcomeconfetti: to the forum.

Second, what a great idea to get a tractor for your dad, the same model he wished he hadn't sold years ago.

Third, I too got what I would call taken on a tractor purchase from a guy in another state who convinced me over the phone that the package deal, 520H, tiller, snow thrower and mower deck were in excellent condition and I would not be disappointed  and he was a collector who loved to travel with his wife and offered to deliver to my house for just the cost of his fuel..............

Everything was working, but everything needed LOT'S of work noisy, bearings, leaks and charging system and tach repaired,new belts, fluids, filters, and so on.......

Sorry you got lied to and if it were me I would be careful buying anything else from the guy. If he said he has another engine but it smokes, does he really mean it started smoking and he kept running it till it was out of oil and it blew up.       

 

I hope you can save your motor without having to put a bunch of money in it. As far as I'm concerned he should just give you that other motor and an apology!   :)

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Elkskin's mower junkyard

heck if you lived close id offer you a engine from a c101. but ur kind of far and i dont want to ship it lol

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Daddy Don

Sorry about your bad luck but with this site it will be a easy job to rebuild. :text-welcomeconfetti: 

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kudzu3

Sorry Doug. I recently had to rebuild a K 301 with the same symptoms, the difference is, the previous owner told me the engine was blown and the tractor was free. It is possible that the P O of your tractor did not know how serious the problem was, as you said, why would he replace parts on a blown engine? As long as you are inside the engine, I believe it would be a good idea to go ahead and do a complete rebuild. The kit you're looking at above will do the job, BUT, be sure to measure the cylinder and crank before you order, chances are they will need to be machined. Good luck with it.

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