1971 raider 10 6 speed no reverse

[moe1965 718]

HELP   I have a raider 10 6 speed   all the forward gears work    high and low range works but it will not fully engage in reverse.  If I hold the shifter  in the reverse position it will move the tractor in reverse but if I let go it will pop out.

[stevasaurus 22,229]

I take it that 1st gear works great and does not pop out of gear.  That fork gear (#43 part # 5174) in a part diagram engages the cluster gear when going into 1st gear and it engages 1/2 of the the reverse idler (#55 part #4204) when going into reverse.  The other 1/2 of the reverse idler engages the cluster gear and is always in constant contact with it.  (that is how you get the trans to go into reverse) 

    If the shifter feels like it is engaging reverse all the way...you can tell by the feel of the shifter and detente balls going into the notch of the shift rail...you have either worn the teeth off the reverse idler, or one end of the fork gear, or both.  You would need to open the transmission to verify and replace the worn part/s.  It is not a hard job to do and the parts are available.  If you decide to tear into it, I have videos showing how to do it, and @racinfool40 (Mike) has the parts. 

[moe1965 718]

I'm gona rip into it tonight after work.  I'm assuming that I should be able to figure out the issue from what info you gave me... would it be wise just to replace all the parts you mentioned if I'm going that far any how?

[stevasaurus 22,229]

OK....you actually have one of the 8 speed transmissions #5073.  The difference is where the brake drum shaft comes out of the transmission.  Verify that your brake drum is on the cluster gear shaft.  (the 2nd hole toward the front of the transmission from the axle).  There is also a slight difference in a part or two in the hi/low shift mechanism.  Other then that the parts are pretty much the same.  The videos will work for you either way.  You should have the 10 pinion, limited slip differential also.  Here is the link to the thread...

 

Here is a link to the transmission manual...you want Section V...

492-4004.pdf (application/pdf Object)

 

I would wait until you get it open, and cleaned up.  Take some good pictures of the gears and post them here.  Mike is in Ohio, and I would bet you can get parts from him in a couple of days.  Make sure before you open it that you drain it, pull the shifter and you have the shallow side of the trans down...the input shaft is down. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2016 by stevasaurus

[moe1965 718]

Thanks for info.  I should add prior to this issue the trans sometimes would not fully disengage from one gear to the next.  Like going from 3 rd to 2nd.  Rev to second.  I would get fully into another gear and slowly let out the clutch and it would be be jammed between another gear.    Hope this is making sense.  I'm assuming that the trans was not fully into a neutral gate position  before selecting another gear.   

Edited July 15, 2016 by moe1965
Added a word

[stevasaurus 22,229]

That is more information that could make a difference in what is wrong.  Pull out the shifter and see if the ball on the end looks OK...not worn.  See what the oil in it looks like...brown or tan means water is in the oil.  You should not be able to jam the gears like you say in an 8 speed tranny.  This is starting to sound like something with the detente balls, spring and stop.  If the shifter looks OK, you are still going to want to open it up.  It is still not a problem to fix.  Watch the videos in that thread and see if anything pops out at you when you watch them.  They are only like 5 to 10 minutes long, but you will see how things work. 

 

   Tip:  put the horse on blocks, drain the oil, put in 2 qts of diesel, run the horse in gear on blocks for about 15 minutes (3rd gear 3/4 throttle), drain.  This will clean the trans out some and make it a much nicer job.    The reason for doing this on blocks...the diesel could leak out your seals and leave a path in your yard.

 

Edited July 15, 2016 by stevasaurus

[moe1965 718]

I'm missing a detent ball.     I'm still looking.    The spring is bent on the end Here are a few pix 

Edited July 16, 2016 by moe1965

[Racinbob 10,276]

More, you're doing great and you have the best helping you. I think I can fix you up with that spring. The balls are hardware store 1/4" balls but I should have those too. Let me verify tomorrow. Take care of that pin. It should be 3/4" long. The spares I have are 11/16" and, you need the longer pin. 

[moe1965 718]

Thanks racinbob   I guess im to blame for the issues. I bought the tractor back in january at a auction house not running.  got it running shortally after that.   totally took it apart and repainted it and tinkered with it when i had time. I assembeled it to the point i could start it up and go through the gears etc... at that point i didnt have the belt gard on and didnt realize it is necessary to have on to stop the belt.. any how i forced the high low gear and exploded it. I opend up the trans replaced the gear and had one heck of a time getting those detent balls in.   finally success  the shifter never really felt right to me but it did work. i mowed for 3 hrs with it mostly in second but then my current issue poped up.  My question would be do you think that second detent ball never ended up where it belongs and just the end of the spring was falling into that detent in the shifter rail...  if so where did that other ball go?   I couldnt find it anywhere.. I hope it fell out when i split the trans and it ended up in the cardboard and paper towels i had set down on the bench. i took it to the burn barell and set it a blaze  so there is no way to verify if it was in there... Im sure with everyones help i will get this figured   everyone on this forum is very helpful and i cant say that enough.......  Im not upset with myself for trying to fix things and fail..   thats how I learn.      It better than playing Pokemon

Thanks again     john

[stevasaurus 22,229]

John, excellent pictures.  Your gears look OK.  I would take Bob up on the spring and balls.  If you have a pencil magnet check for the ball in the bottom where the shift rails go. My guess, it never made it in there when you rebuilt it and you threw it out.    You didn't tell me that you had already been into that trans a couple of times.     You should be good to go now though.

    You can see that your brake drum is on your cluster gear shaft.  You have the 8 speed #5073 transmission.  Another thing...you can not jam the gears in the 8 speeds if you have both detente balls and the 3/4" stop between the rails.  You can when a ball is missing.  This will solve that issue also. 

 

Tip:  use a 1/8" or 3/16" Allen wrench to hold the detente ball in place while sliding the rail past when you put it back together.

Edited July 16, 2016 by stevasaurus

[Racinbob 10,276]

I'm betting it's in the shift rail hole and was causing you not to be able to get it fully in reverse. Where it would have fallen would be the right spot to cause that. PM me your address John.

[Racinbob 10,276]

One more thing when you get the spring and balls. The 3rd/2nd rail (the one to the rear) must be in the neutral position before you can push the second ball in far enough to get the rev/1st rail past it.

[moe1965 718]

I recieved all the parts today. might be awhile before i put it back together for one its blazing hot right now and work has me tied up.  i will keep you informed.

Thanks again for all your help... jk

[moe1965 718]

up and running    i mowed for about three hrs today going through all combinations of gear changes hi low rev 2nd 3rd etc. with no issues...    if anything 2nd seams to be a little stickey not wanting to come out of gear with ease like all the rest.  im hoping for the best.   thanks again for all your help.... jk      the only thing i wish i  changed all the seals     are they still available for a 5073 trans?????????

[stevasaurus 22,229]

Yes they are still available and if you have some leakage, you can change them out with the trans still on the horse.  Available at NAPA, Motion Industries, ETC. 

Axle seals...SKF 11050

Brake shaft seal...SKF 7410

Input shaft seal...SKF 6105

 

Good work Moe, glad you got her running again.

[moe1965 718]

Thanks for info and that makes me happy to know I can change them without taking it apart again. Is that the part number for a 1 inch axle?

[stevasaurus 22,229]

No, that is for the 1 1/8" axle.  The 1" axles are SKF 9815. 

You should have the 1 1/8" axles.

   To change out a seal, I use a smaller blade screwdriver and rip a little of the rubber and seal by tapping the screwdriver down along side the seal with  about 2 taps with a ball peen hammer.  Then I can get my cotter pin pulling tool and get behind the seal and just pry it out.  Remember, the seal is only about 1/8" thick.  The tool in the bottom right in this pic.

 

Edited August 2, 2016 by stevasaurus

[moe1965 718]

Thanks for info.  It is a one inch shaft.  I measured it with a set of calipers.   I'm wondering  if this was the original trans for this machine or if someone switched it out. A friend of mine has a raider 12.   1972 ish it has 1 1/8 shaft and the axles are about 1 inch longer on each side.   My tractor is a 71. Raider 10

[stevasaurus 22,229]

I have one of the 1972 Raider 10s...the Raider 8 & the 10 came with the #5086 transmission that year.  This Transmission is 1" axles with a 4 pinion differential.  It is possible that your trans in not original to your horse.  It would have bolted right in.  Your model # should be 1-0300 to be a 1971.  If you have this model # 1-0300 and you have 1" axles and the 4 pinion differential (I can see in one of your pictures that your brake drum is on you cluster gear shaft)...then you have the #5086 transmission and it is an 8 speed (not a 6 speed).

    Axle seals would be the SKF 9815. 

 

    Hope that helps to explain what you may have. 

Edited August 2, 2016 by stevasaurus

[moe1965 718]

It's me again.  I'll pop the seal out and go from there.    The modle number is 1 0301 the sticker on the hood said 6 speed.   Thanks again for your help

[stevasaurus 22,229]

Guess what...1-0301 is the 1972 Raider 10...just like mine.  All is good now...right trans on the right tractor. 

 

[moe1965 718]

They might be brothers.      I'm almost finished I'm rebuilding a snow blower for it now

[stevasaurus 22,229]

My serial # 863650.