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Aldon

Triggers, Are they known to fail often?

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Lazarus, my spare GT14 which is carrying load of grass duty until after the show was running excellent. It just stopped running while mowing.

 

i initially thought I had a fuel issue or dead fuel pump or something. I rolled it to the side to troubleshoot later. Well last weekend I did some investigating and I had no spark. I swapped trigger with one I had scavenged off my GT14 parts tractor. I had cleaned it up but never tested it or proved it good. Same resulted.

 

Tractor still had original regulator and readings were marginal as my findings were pointing to the trigger. As such I went ahead and ordered a new regulator. Today I installed and same results. But at least I will have greater confidence in regulator once I get this resolved.

 

What is everyone's experience with these trigger modules? Are they fragile or robust? 

 

I would prefer coil, condenser and points but the block is not set up for points.

 

The only triggers available are very pricey. May be better to find a replacement K321/341 with set up I prefer.

 

On a side note, would the internals of the Current K321 interchange with another set up with points? I believe they would but assumptions are worse than worthless. 

 

Pic ice of one that came off and the freshened up one I installed with same results.

image.jpegimage.jpeg

 

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I read over the thread:

I went and looked at the spare K321 I have from the parts tractor that is awaiting tear down and rebuild. It has the 5 holes mentioned in that thread. Having a better idea of what I was looking for I did locate two of the 5 holes. I imagine the others are there I just may need better light and perhaps knock off some of the foreign material. I may just go ahead and convert to coil and points.

 

 

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Have never done it but understand it has been done.

 

IMAG0788.jpg

 

The picture is a 12 hp that has the same ignition as you have,  My understanding is the center hole has a plug in it.  The other 4 mount the points and cover.

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Would like to know from someone who has done this upgrade how they removed the plug.

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The "trigger" you described is actually the coil. The trigger or pick-up is under the flywheel shroud mounted to the bearing plate. Before you convert to points, check the wiring carefully to and from the coil as well as the pick up wiring. If the coil is grounded at the bottom post, anywhere,  it will not have fire. A bare wire from the coil bottom post meeting a grounding point on the tractor will kill the ignition...even a bad ignition switch. Pull out the OHM meter and check to be sure its not just a rogue ground first.

If you want to convert to points, the points plunger plug can be knocked out with a punch.

I may have a pickup module if needed. 

Let us know what you find and what you need.

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8 minutes ago, oldredrider said:

The "trigger" you described is actually the coil. The trigger or pick-up is under the flywheel shroud mounted to the bearing plate. Before you convert to points, check the wiring carefully to and from the coil as well as the pick up wiring. If the coil is grounded at the bottom post, anywhere,  it will not have fire. A bare wire from the coil bottom post meeting a grounding point on the tractor will kill the ignition...even a bad ignition switch. Pull out the OHM meter and check to be sure its not just a rogue ground first.

If you want to convert to points, the points plunger plug can be knocked out with a punch.

I may have a pickup module if needed. 

Let us know what you find and what you need.

Paul, 

 

Whats your opinion on how robust the breaker less system is? 

 

I have spare coils and point sets. 

 

I I can modify easily once I source a plunger and points cover. eBay for about 20 bucks.

 

Aldon

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I'm still running the original ignition system on my 1970 GT14 if that's any indication! Breakerless. Yes, I'm knocking on wood.

I've converted other engines to poonts ignition and it's not a problem at all. I highly recommend going to the 15 amp stator set up if converting.

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Hmmmm. May try and see if there is an easy fix before I punt then...

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Aldon,

I'm a little out of my league here, but I'd check the coil out.

My old original K321 went completely dead once before the engine lunched itself later on, and the not running problem was the coil went to hell.

Also from my previous experience with motorcycles in the '70s with points ignitions, we thought we had died and gone to heaven when CDI ignitions began to displace points installations.

They either worked or they didn't.....there wasn't any fiddle farting around trying to find the sweet spot where they would run best.

Edited by ztnoo
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The diagnostics are pretty simple.  Worth a test.  I have a trigger that will pass the test the first time but not subsequent times... go figure.  Flashlight tester is 2 d cells a flash light bulb and some wire.

test.JPG

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Aldon, I asked Ed Stoller who is the CDI Ignition King to respond to you issue..... he sent a note to you but he was not sure it got through.... here's what he said

 

Hi Aldon,

 

I also have a GT 14 and the Breakerless Ignition failed about 15 years ago. These are Capacitance  Discharge Ignitions, CDI. The first thing I did was build a new one from piece parts and it failed to. So, since the snow was getting deeper, I did the quick easy thing, convert to a battery powered make /break ignition. Kohler leaves the block set up for it. There are screw holes, I think already threaded , There is a plug in the hole for the plunger that needs to be pulled out. I drilled a small hole in it , screwed in a drywall screw, and puled the plug out with a claw hammer. I think I put a magnet on the drill bit to collect the cuttings. I may have the dimensions and references on my other computer.

 

The device in the first picture is actually the CDI Pules Transformer ( ignition Coil) with the main capacitor in series. So if you try to measure the resistance of the PT primary winding you should find it open. If you use an analog meter, you may see the needle drift to open as the capacitor charges. If you use a capacitance meter, the primary winding is so low it won't matter and the capacitor  may be about 6 microfarred?. If the capacitor is what failed, you should be able to replace it. I can show you where to find the ends.

 

There is an electronic module in the system. I took two of these failed units apart and found a bad ground connection at a rivet so that should also be repairable. I do not have my notes hand on that.

 

Ed Stolller    enginesandmagnets.com.

 

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10 minutes ago, rgrottk said:

Aldon, I asked Ed Stoller who is the CDI Ignition King to respond to you issue..... he sent a note to you but he was not sure it got through.... here's what he said

 

Hi Aldon,

 

Ed Stolller    enginesandmagnets.com.

 

Much appreciated. Excellent and descriptive.

 

Thank Ed Stoller for me please. His message dos not get through to me so I'm very glad you chose to forward it so to speak.

 

I think I'm gonna modify for coil and points. These breakerless set ups just seem too fragile and I have very little patience for equipment that fails consistantly.

 

I just ordered a plunger and cover....

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6 minutes ago, Aldon said:

Much appreciated. Excellent and descriptive.

 

Thank Ed Stoller for me please. His message dos not get through to me so I'm very glad you chose to forward it so to speak.

 

I think I'm gonna modify for coil and points. These breakerless set ups just seem too fragile and I have very little patience for equipment that fails consistantly.

 

I just ordered a plunger and cover....

Not to be picky but...  The breakerless systems ran, in many cases, for 40 years or more before failure....How many times were the points replaced on a tractor that age????

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I agree with you. 40 years is a solid performance. 

 

I have a spare K321 which was similarly pushed into a field to waste away due to ignition issue apparently.

 

Points are an easier fix by a bit. I won't have to remove tins if points need replaced.

 

Then there is replacement parts cost and availability. Points and coil readily available.

 

The coil for the CDI alone is rare as frogs hair. Only one on EBay for 200.00

 

These older electronic modules seemingly become more fragile the older they get. It may be due to failing solder joints.

 

So perhaps the CDI is a good system in its own right but for future parts needs, I either retrofit now or later.

 

 

Edited by Aldon

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Well the weather let loose today.

image.jpeg

So no painting or assembling decks or impliments, no installing new front wheel hubs on the Horse Hauler Silverado so what to do....Well I have a project engine on the bench. Might as well try Ed Stollers procedure out and document as I go in case someone else needs DIY pics.

The pics basically follow the procedure above.

 

I had ordered some parts before the show and some parts I keep in stock like new points, condensers and coils. Alas I don't keep 10-24 screws and so this projects actual finish and test firing will have to probably wait for another rainy day.

this is pic of the module that is part of breakerless system under the shroud. This is what failed on Lazarus. My back up GT14.

image.jpeg

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the above pic shows breakerless coil which is usually mounted on outside of shroud. Note there are 3 wires that come off the armature rather than 2. Two route through the plate to the regulator and one to the module. That one will be capped. The module then has a wire that goes through upper left and to the coil. This mod removes coil and module.

image.jpeg

this shows the 5 holes that are in almost all blocks. The center hole is plugged in breakerless system. The plug is what has to be removed to add points plunger.

image.jpeg

The drill bit I chose which is large enough to pilot the machine screw but allows enough material to remain to go to next size up if I strip out the hole before plug is freed.

image.jpeg

after drilling I start the screw into pilot hole and thread it enough to allow claw hammer space to slide under screw head.

image.jpeg

It did come free from plug but I was able to retread the screw and eureka! The below pic shows what the plug looks like.

image.jpeg

A couple pics of front and back. Penny for scaling.image.jpegimage.jpeg

and pics of the parts I have in hand to finish next rainy day.

image.jpegimage.jpegimage.jpeg

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I was on the roof working on a chiller praying for rain. We got 6 drops! :(

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Figured I would give an update. In addition to asking for a hint.

 

So I decided that I would freshen up this Bench K321 that I decided to mod and add points to and just swap it onto my GT14 (Lazarus). 

 

So so that's what I've been doing inbetween finishing my Dozer Blade refresh and doing brakes on Horse Hauler etc. 

 

And grandfather duty.

 

Been pretty hectic since the big show.

 

Anyway, I'm just about ready to wrap this up. Waiting on a new carb and while putting this thing back together I can't recall how this part attached to the main shroud. It's been more than a year since I tore it down. 

 

Its obvious that it somehow attached to the larger hole but I am getting senile. A little help please? Lol

 

image.jpegimage.jpegimage.jpeg

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How my 12hp is setup.  I had the same problem...it was apart so long I forgot which way the connections went had the cable on the top.  Had to go look at my pretty much all original Charger 12 to get it right.  The mind is a terrible thing to lose.

 

Incidentally did you test your trigger after you removed it???

IMG_0161.JPG

IMG_0160.JPG

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I have not tested the module. I will though as I can likely sell it to recoup my expenditures if it is still good.

 

 

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So I'm about 90% done with the engine transplant. Need to do some more work on muffler bracket and remove and clean the PTO bearings but I was able to test fire the engine and test functionality.

 

The engine runs magnificent! Very pleased with this modification. 

 

Although it it took a bit more effort than I had initially thought, most was due to my OCD ways. Might as well upgrade/change since I'm in it already kind of stuff. 

 

Switched to nelson muffler same as my resto-mod Elijah. Skipping the shield as I don't see it as necessary. Also switched ignition switch over from Magneto style to cheaper version. I now have 2 magneto style ignition switches if anyone needs one:-)

 

Should have Lazarus wrapped back up and discharged from inpatient clinic to start earning it's keep later this afternoon.

 

obligatory pics:

image.jpegimage.jpeg

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I guess I never came back with an update. Well it worked like a charm.

 

I am doing another upgrade and after cleaning the shaft hole out in preparation of pulling the plug out I decided to take a pic to add a little more granular detail to help clarify.

 

Here is a pic of theholes. There are 5 and not all are shown. The one with the plug is the center one which is just a bit off centered towers the top of the engine or the 3rd from the top. The screwdriver indicates the one that the plug needs pulled from. You can see the shinier edge of the plug in the hole.

 

 

image.jpeg

Edited by Aldon
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So Lazarus has been resurrected for good this time.

 

I swapped a spare engine into it to continue using while I repaired the ignition system. Then I got side tracked and temps hit 90's.

 

So with temps reasonable and finally got a good Saturday to work on it I decided it was time to knock this off the list. Not to mention I want to put the snow blade on it and I have procrastinated enough.

 

So I modified the engine first thing the morning removing the old CDI and added points and coil. Tore the tractor down, pulled engine and replaced. 

 

Laz ax runs awesome again.

 

in the one pic you can see 3 different engines. The one I pulled out next to the K341 I got from @richie, and 3rd one which you can make out just above the back seat cushion on the bench in the garage and is the one I Modified this morning.

 

The final pics are after the road test.

 

image.jpegimage.jpegimage.jpegimage.jpeg

 

 

Edited by Aldon
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