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pfrederi

Why I am not big fan of electric PTOs

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Keys tend to be softer metal and will wear / shear first.

That is a good thing, just replace the key and you are good to go.

 

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Back to the final part of disassembly.  I pushed the big bearing out on a 20 ton press.  Be sure you support the pulley flange as much a possible as you do not want it to bend.  These bearing have been there 45 years and do not slide out.  (After- thought next time I might cut a 3.5 diameter hole in a piece of plywood to cushion and even pressure on the pulley flange.)  i found two types of bearings.  WH TSB mentions the one on the left as being replaced by the one on the right.  Note the inner race stands proud on both sides in the older one.

 

Two numbers the old one is X88107U.  Now 88107 is a widely available bearing but the X and the U must mean oddball.  The PTO bearing is 40mm x72mmx17mm, the commonly available 88107 has a 35mmm bore.....

 

The other bearing is also NLA from WH and apparently form Simplicity.Allis based on web postings.

 

It is 6207-40NSL,  once again 6207 is a common bearing but they all have a 35mm bore.  The -40 indicates a 40 mm bore.  My bearing guy says he found the 6207-40NSL  It is on the way so we will pause this thread until I get and see if it fits. Being a pessimist I popped the seals off the 6207 bearing and cleaned it out and repacked it.  The older bearing seals didn't want to pop and since it felt good I left it alone.

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7 hours ago, WHX61/3 said:

The pulleys were made of stamped steel and bent meaning the whole assembly had to be replaced to the tune of 285 from a dealer. The one Paul is showing looks to be cast.

 

The clutch/drive pulleys on my 1969 GT 14 (1-7441) tractor are all cast, hydro pump (on the Sundstrand itself) pulley included.

No wonder they do so well, even when the grub screws get lose.

Anything which is made of cast iron is almost unbeatable in terms of durability compared with anything else which could be substituted.

The crankshaft key is what gets eaten alive if the hydro drive and clutch pulleys gets ignored however........or if the clutch is used in really abusive high load/shock situations.......repeatedly.

 

This thread should be a "pinned thread" , IMO.

I think anything WH with an electric clutch, these general principals would apply, especially with the older tractors.

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Agreed @ztnooespecially on the pinned thing..question for you tho Paul is why do you think ithe OEM bearing have those extended shoulders?

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18 hours ago, WHX61/3 said:

It looks like a key that is common to  pto and drive pulley??

 

Yes, that's right. The key is 1/4" X `1/4" X 3 1/8"

It runs the entire length of the crank slot and goes through both the hydro drive pulley and the clutch pulleys.

I gets exposed to loads from two different sources.

Edited by ztnoo

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11 hours ago, WHX61/3 said:

Agreed @ztnooespecially on the pinned thing..question for you tho Paul is why do you think ithe OEM bearing have those extended shoulders?

I have no idea why they had two different bearings...Maybe their supplier changed???

 

They replaced 3 different units with one 101473 which they say in the tsb can be identified by the 5/8 nc vs 1"nc pusher in the older units  All 3 I am working on have the 5/8"--- 2 had the flush bearing 1 had the extended center.  i have a 4th unit that has a 7/8" thread for the pusher.  Confused yet??? I am

 

 

 

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I figured out some of the bearing issue.  I had not observed that one of my hubs had a longer bearing surface than the other 2. The hub on the left uses the high shouldered bearing and the distance between the snap ring groove and the step on the shaft is 21.3 mm the bearing is 21.9 thick.  Note the snap ring grove is wider than the snap ring was thick...makes up the variance.  The hubs that used the 6207-40nsl bearing that surface is 16.8 mm the bearing is 16.9 again I guess  the slop in the snap ring groove makes up the difference.

 

The other news, today the bearings showed up and they are 6207-40nsl.  Perfect match for the flat bearing.  So if you have a hub with a 17mm +/- surface you can get a replacement.  I noticed the TSB mentioned checking for shims behind the bearing ( I found none anywhere).  i would think you could use the thinner 6207 bearing on the hub with the longer surface if you added a few shims.  6207-40nsl $18.00   6204-nsl $6.24

 

What I can't fathom is why all hubs have 5/8 NC threads but one uses a different bearing....:wacko:

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Anyone know if these electric clutches were actually manufactured by Wheel Horse, or did they come from a subcontractor source, and if so who was it?

btw Paul, what is the diameter of those clutch pulleys?

I didn't measure mine when I had the clutch off last week, and I was looking at some new electric clutches with varying diameter pulleys, and it occurred to me I neglected to measure mine.

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Flange edge to edge 4-3/4" outer pulley 5-1/4" inner pulley  same as manual PTOs

 

I would think they bought them since some other Garden Tractors have almost identical units.

 

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@stevasaurus, can this thread be pinned as a tutorial so us old fogies can find it again when the need arises?  :thanks:

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6 hours ago, ztnoo said:

Anyone know if these electric clutches were actually manufactured by Wheel Horse, or did they come from a subcontractor source, and if so who was it?

btw Paul, what is the diameter of those clutch pulleys?

I didn't measure mine when I had the clutch off last week, and I was looking at some new electric clutches with varying diameter pulleys, and it occurred to me I neglected to measure mine.

I don't have my NOS electric clutches from 69-73 in front of me, but i recall the stickers on them saying "Warner Electric".

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20 minutes ago, evanloock said:

I don't have my NOS electric clutches from 69-73 in front of me, but i recall the stickers on them saying "Warner Electric".

 

Well, whenever you get a chance to look them over again, all of us would appreciated knowing what you observe.

It would give us a definitive answer about who manufactured these clutches.

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Found this pic on the internet.....I was correct.....Warner Electric made them.

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Found a larger pic of the same image......much more detail.

This original was in an eBay listing from April 2015. This particular example was for a 1" cranksahft.

On my clutch, the Warner sticker is there, but was painted over before I got the tractor.

There is evidence where the "Warranty Void 5/8 x 11 UNC sticker was in the location to the right of the Warner sicker just as in the photo, but it is no longer there.

Note this clutch has a Japanese Nachi bearing on the outside, just as my clutch does.

The inner bearing is a Dana bearing, again just like my clutch (see second photo).

 

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Edited by ztnoo

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This thread is really worthy of being pinned for quick reference!!!!

 

Using the information and directions @pfrederi posted it was a cinch to break my electric PTO down. Unfortunately the larger bearing is the one that to this point no one has located a direct replacement for. However, the one I pulled out is still in great shape and I may go the route of using alternative bearing and try shims. I took the opportunity to sand blast the rust, acid etch prime and paint the 3 pieces and once dry, will re-assemble, replacing the smaller outer bearing at a minimum. 

 

Kudo's to pfrederi for posting this process and the bearing information!!!!

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Read this very well written thread with much interest.  However, it can't be finished yet!  I'm looking forward to seeing it completed.  Pfrederi, please finish it when you have time, I'll be sure to follow!  This is a very informative thread!

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  Great reference here and especially note that the aftermarket stuff may be superior for Some Off Brands like MTD. My free mower project had to have the clutch mounted beneath the vertical shaft engine in order to change the transmission belt. That may be all well and good, but rust interfered with the process and the prying on it would bend the soft thin pulley. [remember I said it is an MTD]. I wanted to see if the thing would actually mow, so the clutch/keyway was freed up with Freeze-Off , which i consider as equal to kroil. After several daily applications, it came off fine. Taking that clutch off was a blessing in disguise in that I discovered the dirt and crud that probably would have doomed the unit

 

 The bottom bearing felt notchy. but Freeze-off managed to make it much better [softening the grease, I guess] and hopefully it will last for the fifteen hours that I need it to run this year. I will then attempt a bearing replacement which can be done off season. and if the clutch refurb fails, well the aftermarket one is half the price of the 363.00 original unit. 365 is a lot to spend on a free mower. so thank you so much for mentioning the source for aftermarket electric clutches!

 

 MTD has a torque value [very important to get correct] of 35 foot pounds, and if the Wheel Horse unit has a torque value, perhaps the experts on this forum can advise the shadetree guys like me what that value is? I have a barn find Electro 12 that I want to get going this winter

Edited by ohiofarmer

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This is a great example of the informative threads here!  I enjoy the point-counter point where issues are not just right or wrong but each has it's own virtue!

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Never found any specific torque for the WH Electro PTO...

 

and I had to rpalce teh Electric PTO on a JD GT235..It did not want o come off at all.  Was a real PIA.  Working from teh bottom up and no nice push off like the WH PTOs.  You basically destroy it to remove it.

Edited by pfrederi

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NT TO THANK ALL OF MY SUPPORTERS  WOW WHAT I HAVE SEEN AND LEARNEDNOW I UNDER STAND HOW EVERY THING'S WORK. I AM GOING TO TRY AGAIN AFTER SEVERAL DAY'S SOAKING WITH BLaster..................i think my next move will be to lay t i have never used a forum beforehe tractor on it's side so i do not have to lay down and fight the problem!!!!!!!!!!!!! I NEVER USED A FORUM BEFORE, THANK'S AGAIN TO ALL...THERE STILL IS A LOT OF GOOD PEOPLE OUT THERE      JACKM

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Someone wondered if Wheel Horse made or bought these clutches. Years ago when I was working in a dealership RECO (distributer) rep.'s came and I picked their brain a little bit, and I asked out of curiosity how big their plant was & what types of machinery they had,  and was surprised to be told that Wheel Horse manufactured nothing, but their people were all quality control (and I would assume at least some assembly). I was shocked when I heard that, being a factory worker myself. Don't know after AMC bought them out, as I think RECO went under before that.

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The rapid growth of demand for Wheel Horse Garden Tractors was too much for the building that Pond had occupied for twelve years. On October 11, 1960, construction began on a new 46,500 square foot steel frame and masonry exterior factory building situated on 36 acres of land on Ireland Road, South Bend, IN.

The new factory was ready for occupancy in August of 1961, the move from the old Pond factory on South Dixie Way

I understand that Warner Electric was the supplier for the electric clutches.

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