Model 6241 - 1969 Raider 12 electrical question

[snowhound 103]

I've been working on a 1969 Raider that my neighbor recently acquired and haven't been able to get any spark at the points. We have changed the points and condenser and checked the stator.  The engine doesn't have an ignition coil or a starter solenoid.  We think the ignition switch is bad. Does anyone have a diagram of the ignition switch and a chart of which posts should be live for each key position?

 

Before responding please keep in mind that the engine is wired to run without an ignition coil or started solenoid.

 

Thanks

Snowhound

[pfrederi 17,125]

No coil but you have points... must be a magneto  points system.  (In the late 60s Kohler used 3 different ignition systems.) Does the engine turn over??  For a Mag system all the ignition switch does is ground out the magneto when you turn it off. the M terminal on the switch should show continuity to ground when the switch is off.  There should be no continuity in the run.start position.

 

To be sure what is the spec number on your engine.

[Howie 882]

My 69 Raider had a solid state ignition on it when I bought it back in 1975. No points though, wire came from stator to unit don't remember

the rest. Was removed way back and converted to battery ignition. It had no solenoid on it just a switch with big copper terminals for the 

connections. Battery cable on one wire to starter on the other one.

[snowhound 103]

Engine turns over, the  + cable from the battery goes to the ignition switch and a cable from the ignition switch goes to the starter.  There is a wire from the rectifier to the    ignition switch and a wire from the ignition switch to the condenser.  At the condenser the condenser wire, the wire from the ignition switch and the wire to the points are all joined together.   The original condenser was the old style that had a connector on it to connect  wires to and the wire from the ignition switch and wire to the points were connected to it. The one we put on has the wire coming out of it so we attached the wire from the ignition switch and the wire from the points to it.

Testing the leads on the ignition switch I found that no power is being sent to the wire that goes to the condenser which is why I was asking about the ignition switch.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,478]

Something wrong here.

The wire for the ignition that comes from the ignition switch needs to go to an ignition coil. Check the back of the ignition switch to see what letter that ignition terminal is identified as. Should be an I (eye) for battery ignition or M for magneto ignition.

Where does the spark plug wire come from? It should be a coil and what does it look like?

 

Garry

[pfrederi 17,125]

Sounds like a magneto system.  You will not see the "coil" it is under the flywheel. The wire from the ignition switch is a ground that is activated in the off position.  It grounds the points (and condenser) thus the magneto stops out putting stopping the engine.  you do NOT want to feed current in that wire you will fry your magneto.  The stator and magneto under the flywheel generate spark any time the flywheel is moving...unless it grounded by the small wire.

 

Why did you replace teh condenser?? 

 

Check and make sure your ignition switch grounds the wire in the off position and is an open circuit in run/start.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,478]

The 1-6241 originally had a K301S-47147c engine with breakerless ignition.

 

That may have failed but odd if magneto ignition replaced it. Would think battery ignition would have been easier.

 

Garry

[Jimf413 57]

Hi All

The tractor your talking about here belongs to me it is my latest purchase A 1969 Rader 12 and yes its a magneto ignition under the flywheel type system. Has never had a coil or solenoid on it. The magnets in the flywheel itself are fully magnetized and the mag field stator tests good as a loop.

I hooked up a meter on the plug lead this morning and spun the flywheel by hand and yes im getting current although low from not spinning fast enough but only from the mag on so my thinking is the ignition switch itself is shot and not allowing current to pass through when in the start run position.  

Id post photos of the system on here but it seams it takes an act of congress to do so.

[pfrederi 17,125]

1 hour ago, gwest_ca said:

The 1-6241 originally had a K301S-47147c engine with breakerless ignition.

 

That may have failed but odd if magneto ignition replaced it. Would think battery ignition would have been easier.

 

Garry

Gary:  I am not sure WH was consistent on what spec # engine they used.  The all years WH spread sheet shows 47147C for the Raider, Charger and Electro in 1969. Engine is WH part 8040.  I have a 1-7241 Charger 12 I am second owner The PO didn't recall any engine swap out but the engine is a spec 47147B which is a Magneto points system Serial number starts with a D manufactured in 1968 which would fit with use in a 69 tractor. 

 

The 68  Raiders and Charger used used 4712B the electro used 47147B, mag units....maybe they had some left over motors.

Edited March 12, 2016 by pfrederi

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,478]

Magneto ignition is self-powered. Do not allow any power into the ignition wire as that will blow the coil.

Disconnect the ignition wire that goes to the ignition switch and isolate it from the metal chassis. It should run and if it does you can shut if off by grounding the ignition wire to the chassis metal.

The ignition switch simply grounds the ignition wire to shut the engine off.

 

Garry

[Jimf413 57]

All the numbers on the tractor WH tractor mod # 1-6241 and Kohler engine Mod # K301S-47147C are a match to the master sheets. Im told by the previous owner today that it was his late fathers tractor bought brand new and never had any engine change or replacement of ignition parts under the flywheel but the condenser, points, and spark plug have been replaced numerous times over the years as regular maints.

This tractor has sat outdoors for over 3 yrs but was running 3 yrs ago and he assured me of all these facts.

I have found a new replacement ignition switch but Im not paying $49.95 plus $7.95 S&H.

Im talking to a guy in Conn who has a same 1969 Rader 12 that has the same engine that runs fine but the trans is no good, Im just better off buying this machine for $100.00 and lots of extra parts.

Jim

[pfrederi 17,125]

Build sheets and memories are great but what is the  spec number on the engine???  If it is  a magneto  with points ignition system the go to Tractor Supply  (or the equal) buy a starter solenoid for about $10 and magneto ignition switch...about the same. Wire the s terminal of the switch to the trigger of the solenoid connect the starter though the solenoid terminals and you are in business

[Jimf413 57]

I will look at the engine cover in the late morning to get all the numbers, I'm storing a great number of tractors about 14 of them mostly Wheel Horse in a vacant for sale

building that I watch and maintain and because I use several to do mowing and other lawn care along with snow removal I have permission to work on them there.

I have 3 more WH tractors at my home. My part time helper with the RS name snowhound who started this subject of questions has been helping on this project for about 6 weeks now. We have been building a small 26" saw rig on the rear of this Rader 12 HP and Im hoping to finish it up and move onto the C160 and mount the side bar sickle mower. I have four C160's  

 

[Jimf413 57]

Only numbers on the engine tag are C54589 and 47147B  Yes its a B not a C This leads me to think the number sheet published isn't right or this engine was removed from a 1968 Electro 12 and put on this 4 speed or the engine cover was replaced.

Why we thought it was a 47147C is because the WH tractor tag says 1-6241 and if you look at the sheets of models produced it comes up as a 4 speed.

Its no matter anyways cause Im going to remove the magneto coil from under the flywheel and put on a large coil and solenoid system.

[pfrederi 17,125]

39 minutes ago, Jimf413 said:

Only numbers on the engine tag are C54589 and 47147B  Yes its a B not a C This leads me to think the number sheet published isn't right or this engine was removed from a 1968 Electro 12 and put on this 4 speed or the engine cover was replaced.

Why we thought it was a 47147C is because the WH tractor tag says 1-6241 and if you look at the sheets of models produced it comes up as a 4 speed.

Its no matter anyways cause Im going to remove the magneto coil from under the flywheel and put on a large coil and solenoid system.

 

 

Do not forget you will have to change to a battery ignition switch

 

the engine was made in 1967

Edited March 14, 2016 by pfrederi

[Jimf413 57]

Already have all I need from other WH tractor parts from scraped tractors.

[Jimf413 57]

Finely got the 1968 Rader 12 running after removing a complete wire harness from a B80 and installing it on the 12 started right up and runs fine.

This tractor sat outdoors for over three years so I was surprised the engine wasn't seized up being the muffler was snapped off. It did have a stuck exhaust valve but was able to free it up.

The transmission has only 1st and reverse gear and cant get it into 2nd or 3rd gear so we are thinking of replacing the rear end with the trans out of a Rader 9 that I have.

High and low gear works and we already drained and flushed the gearbox so something must of gotten bent from being frozen up over and over. Yes it had a lot of water in it from the rotten boot allowing in a lot of rain water. Surprised the crank case didn't split. 

We removed the shiftier and tried to force the forks to move and it was no go.

 

Update.. I decided to give the stick shift a real hard yank figuring I was going to have to change the trans anyways so what the heck if I broke it right!? so i gave it one real hard pull to the right in the 2nd gear position and it went into gear and also into 3rd gear. DAM.!!! These old Wheel Horse tractors are full of surprises. 

Edited March 30, 2016 by Jimf413

[Jimf413 57]

The Rader 12 is fully operational and we are testing the rear mount saw rig tomorrow. It still has a few stabilizer braces to be mounted before going into full heavy use.