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1967 857

1967 857 Will Not Start

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Lets take the wiring ans ignition switch out of this.  Remove the heavy wire from the Armature terminal.  Then try jumping from the battery

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Thus far, I find no shorts.  Two more which I need to check.....

 

To all who have offered guidance - thank you for your expertise!  Looking forward to hearing this little Wheel Horse fire up and come to life.  For now, that will have to wait until we figure this one out (which we will)!   I remain that the cause is likely, something very simple. 

 

What are we........what am I missing?

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Did you try removing the heavy wire and then jumping directly to the A terminal? Need to get the switch and other wiring out of the picture. 

Did you try removing the heavy wire and then jumping directly to the A terminal? Need to get the switch and other wiring out of the picture. 

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Will do Pfrederi.........stand by.

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Do what Paul is on to 1st.

You should see a short on every wire, if you have a probe on each end of a wire.  This is like checking a fuse for continuity.  :)

 

I am wondering why you are only getting 2 volts on the one measurement.  Maybe you have a bad cell or cells in your new battery.  You should get 12 volts going across the 2 poles.

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2 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

Do what Paul is on to 1st.

You should see a short on every wire, if you have a probe on each end of a wire.  This is like checking a fuse for continuity.  :)

 

I am wondering why you are only getting 2 volts on the one measurement.  Maybe you have a bad cell or cells in your new battery.  You should get 12 volts going across the 2 poles.

If there is some sort of short to ground in the switch wiring I am thinking when he tries to jump it the jump current finds its easiest path back through the switch.  Why I want to take all the wiring out of the picture.  Also need to consider the SG isn't firmly grounded.  Maybe do a continuity test from a mounting bolt/case to the new ground wire point???

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Yes, also check the engine mount bolts, or run a ground wire from the engine to the frame.  And he can do it with the meter, if he uses it to look for a short.  :)

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I think he's measuring the voltage drop on that 2 v reading. Me thinks you may need to investigate the inside of that genny. I was going to say loosen up that genny and slide it back and forth a few times to shine up the attaching points but Paul beat me to it.

 

As of a note: My 1267 Skonkmobile has been sitting pretty much all winter. Plowed with it once and have started it a couple of other times. When turning the key I get a hesitation before the genny starts turning. I believe this is caused by some extra resistance in the circuit and may be caused by inactivity. dirty stuck brush. Rusty dirty commutator bar ect.

Edited by squonk
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Mike, my 702, 857 and 876 all have the same S/G and they all give that little "thinking about turning over" thingy when I turn the key.  It is faster with a good battery charge, but it is obviously a resistance issue.  We are just trying everything we can before he has to open the S/G up.  He was able to jump it at the start of this thread.  All of mine, even though I get that little "Oh, OK...I'll turn over", they start on the 1st 1/2 turn.  :)

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Also thinking we may need to up the voltage.  Hook up a battery charger to the battery as you jump the A terminal.  Get 13.5-14 volts vs 12.6.  Maybe overcome some of Squonks noted Grunge>

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Also seems to me when jumping the "A" shouldn't we be seeing a spark when connecting? 

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I removed the heavy wire from the S/G and connected/jumped from the positive terminal of the battery to the S/G post where the heavy wire was connected - S/G did not engage (and there was some sparking from the S/G terminal when I connected the jump wire).

 

I will re-check all wires again for continuity (ohmmeter setting, placed probes on both ends of the wire, I see a few ohms).

 

One more thing - the new NAPA battery (checked voltage, 12.5) has 225 Cold Cranking Amps.  I also attempted to jump start the tractor, using jumper cables to my running SUV - engine did not turn over. 

 

I doubt it but I'll ask anyway......should I return the new, NAPA tractor battery and exchange it for one with 400+ CCA?

 

Edited by 1967 857
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I do not have a digital multi-meter...I am guessing that a digital would see infinity as a short??

No short...

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Short

 

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I have been trying things out on a new S/G that I just used set up on A k181.  it is just an engine not mounted to anything yet.  I have a battery and jumper cables.  There is only a slight spark when i hit the A terminal and it starts spinning immediately.  I keep thinking voltage issue

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Go across the battery and work out??  :)  I can check my 876 also here...I just put a new battery in that a week ago. 

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Have we checked the battery voltage at the battery? Since it is new and let's just assume it's good and we are getting proper voltage on the jump wire the problem lies in the return (ground circuit) wires engine mount ,genny mount or it's the genny itself.

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No need for a bigger battery if it didn't work with the SUV running that should have gotten you about 14 volts...  Check the ground of teh unit it self. You can trust your mother you can't trust your ground

Edited by pfrederi
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If you have auto jumper cables try clamping one black end to the genny mount and the other black end to the battery neg. then jump from the battery pos to the A terminal. if nothing happens it's inside the genny.

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Hang in there with us "1967 857".  We don't want you running around in circles...listening to 3 or 4 guys at once.  I am just going to back off here and lurk and see what Paul and Mike bring up.  I'll mention something if I see something.  :)

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I'm leaning towards the dirty genny. I had a Honda Goldwing which are known for hard starting. I had starting trouble and pulled the tiny starter out and was amazed on how much trash was in there from the brushes and coils. I am thinking you and the PO got lucky the starter worked when you jumped it from that other battery.

Edited by squonk

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Steveasaurus - You bet, hanging in and learning as we go. We'll figure this out!

 

Pfrederi - ground is fastened super tight to the engine block.

 

Squonk - Took out the jumper cables, one black end to the S/G mount and the other black end to the battery's negative terminal. Then from A terminal on S/G to the battery's positive terminal - nothing happens when I turn the key.

 

S/G rebuild?

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Just now, 1967 857 said:

Steveasaurus - You bet, hanging in and learning as we go. We'll figure this out!

 

Pfrederi - ground is fastened super tight to the engine block.

 

Squonk - Took out the jumper cables, one black end to the S/G mount and the other black end to the battery's negative terminal. Then from A terminal on S/G to the battery's positive terminal - nothing happens when I turn the key.

 

S/G rebuild?

What I am looking at is the generator it self grounded to the engine block.  With your multimeter in resistance mode check from the F terminal (that is not the one we have been jumping to, only has one small wire on it) to your engine block ground or the battery negative. I am with Squonk if the generator case and field coil are well grounded and we get 12+ volts to the A terminal then it should work.  If not it is an internal problem

Just now, 1967 857 said:

Steveasaurus - You bet, hanging in and learning as we go. We'll figure this out!

 

Pfrederi - ground is fastened super tight to the engine block.

 

Squonk - Took out the jumper cables, one black end to the S/G mount and the other black end to the battery's negative terminal. Then from A terminal on S/G to the battery's positive terminal - nothing happens when I turn the key.

 

S/G rebuild?

What I am looking at is the generator it self grounded to the engine block.  With your multimeter in resistance mode check from the F terminal (that is not the one we have been jumping to, only has one small wire on it) to your engine block ground or the battery negative. I am with Squonk if the generator case and field coil are well grounded and we get 12+ volts to the A terminal then it sho

 

5 minutes ago, 1967 857 said:

Steveasaurus - You bet, hanging in and learning as we go. We'll figure this out!

 

Pfrederi - ground is fastened super tight to the engine block.

 

Squonk - Took out the jumper cables, one black end to the S/G mount and the other black end to the battery's negative terminal. Then from A terminal on S/G to the battery's positive terminal - nothing happens when I turn the key.

 

S/G rebuild?

uld work.  If not it is an internal problem

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Pfrederi - on my digital multi-meter, in resistance mode (20 ohms setting), from "F" terminal to negative terminal on battery and to the engine block, the reading fluctuates and eventually settles on 1.0.   When I check voltage from the "F" terminal on the S/G to the positive terminal on the battery, I see 12.3 to 12.5 volts.

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I was starting to look for links for parts for the starter/generator.  this link shows the WH# for the unit, brushes, etc.  I am sure there is more...if I find any thing, I will add to this post.  :)

 

I do have an idea though.  If you have another tractor, you can pull it up face to face...figure 8 a long fan belt between the 2 engine pulleys...turn on the key and push the 2 tractors apart...to tighten the belt.  This will turn the engine enough to start, even if the starter is not turning...kind of like coasting down a hill and popping the clutch.  :)

 

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