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1967 857

1967 857 Will Not Start

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ay 1:01 PM 

Hi Gents! Looking for your guidance. I am the proud owner of a recently acquired a 1967 857 with the 8 HP Kohler K181 engine. Very cool. Ran fine at previous owners place (with a jump from a good battery), drove it up on the trailer, trailered it home, then replaced the old spark plug, replaced the old battery (brand new/NAPA) and replaced the old ground cable (NAPA too). On my attempt to start, I turn the key.......and nothing happens - specifically, the engine does not turn over (no clicks, no starter sounds, no sound at all) - the only thing that happens is the red "Generator" light on the dashboard, illuminates. I tried using the old ground cable to rule out the new ground cable as the culprit - same thing, nothing happens (no clicks, no starter sounds, no sounds at all).
 
Where do I begin to troubleshoot?  Looking for your suggestions and many thanks.
 
P.S Where is the starter motor located on the K181?
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 i am pretty sure your 857 came with a starter generator unit. it is the big cylindrical unit between the engine and the gas tank.

You can download the manual for her herehttp://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/583-tractor-1967-857-da-om-ipl-wiring-snpdf/

 

If it is a Starter generator jump from the battery positive to the Terminal on the generator housing with A stamped next to it. (it should have a heavy wire attached to it).  if it starts to spin the engine then the problem is most likely in your switch or wiring to and from it.

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Welcome to Red Square  :)   !st...there is no such thing as an 857 that will not start.  Like Paul said...that is a starter/generator.  Being a backyard mechanic...I would put everything back like it was...jump it and see if it starts.  If it does...change things one at a time.  It could be a bad plug (for instance)...it happens.  :)

  The starter/generator has 2 circuits running to the regulator.  One is the starter and powers when you turn the key...the other is the generator and charges the battery while running.

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:WRS:      The Starter/generator has no solenoid so there will not be a clicking noise when you turn the key. If you have a good ground on the negative terminal of a good battery and do as @pfrederi suggested and use a jumper from battery positive to the "A" terminal on the Starter/generator it should either turn over or at least create an arching sound at the "A" terminal of a good unit. Since it started when you loaded it I presume it will turn over, attached is a picture of the S/G unit.

 56d4c5c2eec3d_953enginestartergenerator.

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4 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

:WRS:      The Starter/generator has no solenoid so there will not be a clicking noise when you turn the key. If you have a good ground on the negative terminal of a good battery and do as @pfrederi suggested and use a jumper from battery positive to the "A" terminal on the Starter/generator it should either turn over or at least create an arching sound at the "A" terminal of a good unit. Since it started when you loaded it I presume it will turn over, attached is a picture of the S/G unit.

 56d4c5c2eec3d_953enginestartergenerator.

That's a sweet looking tractor, Pal.  B)

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20 minutes ago, Retired Sparky said:

That's a sweet looking tractor, Pal.

Thanks, but it isn't mine. :hide:  It just happened to be the first image I found in the Gallery that showed a S/G unit. One of these days my Early production 953 project will look as nice as @Magne's 1054 though. First I have to complete the construction of cabinets for our utility room.

Edited by 953 nut
give credit to Magne
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Appreciate the responses, thank you gentlemen!  Thank you all for the insight and guidance. I will be in a position to give the jump a try tomorrow night and will report back to this forum.  Until then.........

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I think that Starter/Generators are so cool i just finished converting a newer K181 to a S/G set up.. Now I just have to find a tractor to mount it on.  Two of the tractors I maintain for neighbors are S/Gs and I love them

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Also, check the cranking amps. I know you just replaced the battery, but the previous battery could have been underpowered as well. It will run with a jump (from a car battery or such), but my not have enough juice to start it on it's own. Sounds stupid but I bought a unit that had a battery with only 145 CCA's. Started right up with a jump, but even fully charged, it wouldn't turn the machine over, not even a click. Got a 285 CCA battery and if fired right up!

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1 hour ago, Wheelin'theSky said:

Also, check the cranking amps. I know you just replaced the battery, but the previous battery could have been underpowered as well. It will run with a jump (from a car battery or such), but my not have enough juice to start it on it's own. Sounds stupid but I bought a unit that had a battery with only 145 CCA's. Started right up with a jump, but even fully charged, it wouldn't turn the machine over, not even a click. Got a 285 CCA battery and if fired right up!

  Ya, that sounds like the right battery. And even a good one, they only last for three or four years. B)

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Good morning - I checked the new battery this morning - 285 CCA.  Tonight, after work, I will try a "jump from the positive battery terminal to the terminal on the the starter/generator which has a more heavy gauge wire attached" approach (see top of pic below). 

 

I will update this thread after my attempt, tonight!

IMG_0431 (1).jpg

Edited by 1967 857
Attached photo.

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You may have a dirty/stuck brush or bad spot in the commutator in the start/gen

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Gentlemen - I'm sorry to report, no luck.

 

I jumped from the positive battery terminal to the terminal on the the starter/generator which has a more heavy gauge wire attached, and again, nothing happens (starter/generator does not turn and the engine does not turn over).

 

Any recommended next steps?  

 

How would I check for a dirty/stuck brush or bad spot in the communicator (as SQUONK suggested)?

 

Many thanks!

IMG_0431 (1).jpg

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Is it just the picture?  Your ground cable off the battery, at the frame, looks like it is not tight.   :eusa-think:

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Hi Steve - no, it is tight.  Just wire brushed and re-tightened all connections, including those to the new battery and the ground. The red "Generator" light illuminates, but that's it - no engagement of the starter/generator.

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Have you tried turning the engine over a bit by hand and then try the jumping from Battery to the Armature terminal.  May be a dead spot in your SG.  Turning it a bit may make it work

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Yep, tried that too. 

 

I removed the starter/generator shroud, turned the engine over by hand a full cycle and attempted to start the engine without the jump - nothing happened.  I then attempted to start with the jump from the positive battery terminal to the terminal on the S/G with the heavy gauge wire - besides the "Generator" light illuminating, nothing happens.

 

I appreciate the guidance and I'm learning as we troubleshoot.  Probably something simple.  Any other suggestions?

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Do you have a multimeter??

 

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Just to be sure hook it up to the armature terminal (the one you jumped to) and ground it  to you r new ground wire in the picture then try turning the switch to start...Get 12 volts??  If you do but no start then ground your meter to one of the generator mounting bolts and try again ..any voltage?? 

Just to be sure hook it up to the armature terminal (the one you jumped to) and ground it  to you r new ground wire in the picture then try turning the switch to start...Get 12 volts??  If you do but no start then ground your meter to one of the generator mounting bolts and try again ..any voltage?? 

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What ever you do...do not even tap that starter/generator with a hammer.  It is real easy to crack a magnet inside the housing.  :)

 

Maybe you have a broken wire inside the insulation...high resistance open.  Use the multi-meter and turn the dial so as to see a short...the needle pegs when you touch the probes together.  With the key off...touch one of the probes to each end of a single wire.  You should see the short if the wire is good.  You may have to isolate any power...take the green wire off the battery. 

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Strange - I get 2.0 volts when I measure between the armature terminal and the new ground when I turn the switch to start.

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3 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

What ever you do...do not even tap that starter/generator with a hammer.  It is real easy to crack a magnet inside the housing.  :)

I agree beating it will not help but i am pretty sure there are no magnets involved here (unlike the normal Kohler Starter which does have them).  In  generator the field coil takes the place of the permanent magnet (it is an electro magnet)..  The strength of the field coil determines the output of the generator.  The coil strength is determined by how well grounded the coil is and this is accomplished by the regulator.(Fully grounded equals max magnetisim and max output)  I am a bit rusty on the motor side of the operation but checking the S/G I have in the shop the field is fully grounded at rest.

3 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

What ever you do...do not even tap that starter/generator with a hammer.  It is real easy to crack a magnet inside the housing.  :)

I agree beating it will not help but i am pretty sure there are no magnets involved here (unlike the normal Kohler Starter which does have them).  In  generator the field coil takes the place of the permanent magnet (it is an electro magnet)..  The strength of the field coil determines the output of the generator.  The coil strength is determined by how well grounded the coil is and this is accomplished by the regulator.(Fully grounded equals max magnetisim and max output)  I am a bit rusty on the motor side of the operation but checking the S/G I have in the shop the field is fully grounded at rest.

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Thanks Steve - I have a digital meter, but get your point.  Running out to the shop to check.

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