Charger 12 FEL question

[BenTheWheelHorseMan 43]

I have a 1969 Charger 12 That I am thinking about putting a front end loader on. That being said, I would either like to buy one for a good price or fab in one myself. I need some advice as to whether I could possibly run it off of the hydro tranny on my tractor or if I needed a hydraulic pump. Another question is if I needed a hydraulic pump, how would it perform with a FEL? Would it have good enough pressure for that application. Heck, I don't even know if my Charger would be a good choice for a FEL. All help is appreciated.

[953 nut 51,665]

   The volume of oil needed for a front end loader will require a separate tank and pump. There have been a couple of threads on here recently on building and rebuilding FELs, do a search and you will gain a lot of information.

 

[953 nut 51,665]

Here is one FEL thread that is current.

 

 

 

[KC9KAS 4,741]

@BenTheWheelHorseMan  to  and

[BenTheWheelHorseMan 43]

Thanks for your advice. I have learned a lot from the other thread. What do you recommend as far as hydraulic systems? I have seen some people talk about power steering pumps with remote resivoirs, but I don't know about how much flow is necessary to run a FEL reasonably. And you wanted pictures!

[MalMac 1,328]

Besides all the hydraulic issues, remember you will need to put a Heavy Duty front end on it. Convert it over by using a 520 front Axel and spindles or find the Heavy Duty front end kit that was offered. Ether way you go you will have to beef that front end up.

[Snowmobileaddict 403]

For cylinders like the kwikways (2" diameter) you're going to want a pump that does 5-6 gpm at 3/4 to near full throttle rpm.

 

The pressure the pump needs to put out to run a small kwikway style loader is under 1250 psi.  In fact, I believe that the relief valve built into my control valve is set around 750psi.

 

if you spec a pump that displaces significantly more gpm, the loader becomes jerky and difficult to control (bucking bronco). Too little gpm and it takes too long to lift the boom from ground level to max height.  5-6 gpm is well documented as the sweet spot for these small  loaders.

[Snowmobileaddict 403]

 

 

 

[BenTheWheelHorseMan 43]

1 hour ago, Snowmobileaddict said:

For cylinders like the kwikways (2" diameter) you're going to want a pump that does 5-6 gpm at 3/4 to near full throttle rpm.

 

The pressure the pump needs to put out to run a small kwikway style loader is under 1250 psi.  In fact, I believe that the relief valve built into my control valve is set around 750psi.

 

if you spec a pump that displaces significantly more gpm, the loader becomes jerky and difficult to control (bucking bronco). Too little gpm and it takes too long to lift the boom from ground level to max height.  5-6 gpm is well documented as the sweet spot for these small  loaders.

So would a smaller car power steering pump run off if the pto get good enough flow for that? Or is either a belt driven or electric hydraulic pump the way to go?

 

2 hours ago, MalMac said:

Besides all the hydraulic issues, remember you will need to put a Heavy Duty front end on it. Convert it over by using a 520 front Axel and spindles or find the Heavy Duty front end kit that was offered. Ether way you go you will have to beef that front end up.

How hard would it be to get ahold of a heavy duty front end or a 520h front end? How much would something like that run me? I'm not looking to spend a ton of money on this, because if I got over $1000 I might as well just find a farm tractor with a loader.

[Snowmobileaddict 403]

If you want to try to control costs on the pump, GM/Saginaw P/S pumps have been used on home-brewed builds.

 

i shelled out $200 for a purpose built pump designed for a sided loaded belt drive (ball bearing support on outboard shaft surface).

 

It's my understanding that the truck style power steering pumps can work in this capacity too as they are designed to be belt driven.  You'll just need to rig up a mounting bracket.

[BenTheWheelHorseMan 43]

44 minutes ago, Snowmobileaddict said:

If you want to try to control costs on the pump, GM/Saginaw P/S pumps have been used on home-brewed builds.

 

i shelled out $200 for a purpose built pump designed for a sided loaded belt drive (ball bearing support on outboard shaft surface).

 

It's my understanding that the truck style power steering pumps can work in this capacity too as they are designed to be belt driven.  You'll just need to rig up a mounting bracket.

In your opinion, is the purpose built pump the way to go? As much as I would like to cut costs, cutting corners on important parts of the build is not an option either. In my area loaders like kwikways are not readily available so does anybody know of any plans for a good loader that would fit my tractor?

[Snowmobileaddict 403]

A good compromise in the pump area would be one of the $100 range pumps on www.surpluscenter.com.

 

They have industry standard mounting patterns and if you go with a pump that is supported by journal bearings instead of a ball bearing, you could try to run the belt somewhat loose to prevent excessive side loading on the shaft.

 

in that situation you'd want to run with a pump that has a shaft diameter bigger than 1/2".  The bigger the shaft, the better the side load force is distributed on the journal bearing.  

 

Lots of guys run pumps with a belt that are journal bearing-supported.  They work, but you have to be careful with belt tension 

I know what you mean about kwikway  loaders being scarce in your area.  I drove 12 hours round trip to get mine!

[WNYPCRepair 1,875]

2 hours ago, BenTheWheelHorseMan said:

In your opinion, is the purpose built pump the way to go? As much as I would like to cut costs, cutting corners on important parts of the build is not an option either. In my area loaders like kwikways are not readily available so does anybody know of any plans for a good loader that would fit my tractor?

 

http://pf-engineering.com

[BenTheWheelHorseMan 43]

Thanks WNYPCRepair. Those plans are very interesting. That seems like it might be a good option. I wonder if there are many ways to help cut some costs because I am not really cracked up about 1200 bucks for a loader on a tractor I paid $300 for.

3 hours ago, Snowmobileaddict said:

A good compromise in the pump area would be one of the $100 range pumps on www.surpluscenter.com.

 

They have industry standard mounting patterns and if you go with a pump that is supported by journal bearings instead of a ball bearing, you could try to run the belt somewhat loose to prevent excessive side loading on the shaft.

 

in that situation you'd want to run with a pump that has a shaft diameter bigger than 1/2".  The bigger the shaft, the better the side load force is distributed on the journal bearing.  

 

Lots of guys run pumps with a belt that are journal bearing-supported.  They work, but you have to be careful with belt tension 

I know what you mean about kwikway  loaders being scarce in your area.  I drove 12 hours round trip to get mine!

Jeez. That is a long way to go for a loader. If you went to those lengths it must be really worth it. I may look at that pump, it sounds like a pretty good option. I'm not sure what you mean about the belt tension hurting the journal bearing though. 

[82Caddy 851]

Deals on loaders are out there. Just have to be patient and possibly expand your search area. I paid 800$ for mine (ARK550) with all but one hydraulic line replaced, all lift cyclinders rebuilt and d-series (what mine is going on) specific subframe. I drove 4.5 ish hours round trip for mine.

[wallfish 15,919]

1 hour ago, BenTheWheelHorseMan said:

I'm not looking to spend a ton of money on this, because if I got over $1000 I might as well just find a farm tractor with a loader.

 

Find one, or get that farm tractor. There are deals out there but you need to be persistent and diligent. Most sell for more than a $1000. There's no way you can build one for less than $1000 unless you don't have to buy the hydraulic parts. A pump. spool valve, cylinders, hoses, fittings, ect will cost that.

PF Engineering plans are top notch with a proven design and will tell you exactly what to buy. $1200 is a bit low even though that's what's on their website. I built their backhoe in 08 and was in it over $2000 plus I got 90% of the steel for free. One thing about building one is you don't have to put out all the cash at once. Build it over time and buy parts as you progress.

[Snowmobileaddict 403]

I've got just a tick under $1200 into my build right now and all I need is a jug of hydraulic fluid.  My refresh and rebuild basically sets me up with a completely as-new Kwikway loader (brand new bucket too).

 

As for finding one that suits your needs patience is key.  You'll see some real projects with the seller thinking they're sitting on a gold mine, and you'll see some that are just too damn far away.

 

I looked for about 4 years until I scored mine on eBay for $285.  I had to build a subframe, supply a pump, and while I was at it, I decided, why not go for a full blown resto-mod on the thing.  It's been a blast building this thing these last 10 weeks.

[Snowmobileaddict 403]

Many lower price-point hydraulic pumps have plain journal bearings.  The manufacturers data sheets often indicate that these types of pumps are not suitable to be used in a belt drive application.  They need to be operated by a lovejoy or other bolt on drive that is on the centerline of the power input shaft.  This arrangement does not introduce a side load.

 

The problem can be that the small journal bearings can get a groove worn into them in a belt drive, side-load application.  This groove allows the pump shaft to displace the lip seal on the pump housing and the pump begins to leak at the shaft seal.

 

This is why Kwikway used pumps on their loaders that are equipped with outboard ball bearings on the pump input shaft.

[wallfish 15,919]

Here's a belt driven pump that will power a garden tractor FEL

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200329712_200329712

Edited January 17, 2016 by wallfish

[BenTheWheelHorseMan 43]

10 hours ago, Snowmobileaddict said:

Many lower price-point hydraulic pumps have plain journal bearings.  The manufacturers data sheets often indicate that these types of pumps are not suitable to be used in a belt drive application.  They need to be operated by a lovejoy or other bolt on drive that is on the centerline of the power input shaft.  This arrangement does not introduce a side load.

 

The problem can be that the small journal bearings can get a groove worn into them in a belt drive, side-load application.  This groove allows the pump shaft to displace the lip seal on the pump housing and the pump begins to leak at the shaft seal.

 

This is why Kwikway used pumps on their loaders that are equipped with outboard ball bearings on the pump input shaft.

Ok I see now what you were trying to say. Thanks for clearing that up. 

 

9 hours ago, wallfish said:

Here's a belt driven pump that will power a garden tractor FEL

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200329712_200329712

This pump might be the way to go. Thanks again for all of your help everybody. I will continue looking forward to seeing what you more experienced guys have to say.