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Ironhorse1077

Diagnosing starting problems

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Ironhorse1077

How does one tell if it's just the cold weather or a starter vs. coil vs. condenser or something else?

 1979 C-161 Auto is needed for snowthrower duty and she was running fine up till today.  She'd been sitting for a couple (2) days in the cold and failed to start so I jumped it and ran for awhile then parked for the night.  Next day - no start, so I charged the battery indoors and tried again - flywheel turned a little, but we're not even to the coughing and sputtering point yet - not that she coughs much - just minimal smoke upon firing and before you ask,.....it has a new spark plug and good ethanol-free fuel with treatment.

ALSO:  how available are said parts if one of them is the culprit? ( I assume they may be aftermarket and in need of a coat of red paint)?

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953 nut

:WRS:   The first place to look is all of the electrical connections including grounds, if any are at all corroded it will cause a problem. Hope this helps.

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gwest_ca

The 1979 engine sits on a rubber mounted plate. Check the ground cable going from the plate to the frame.

 

Garry

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AMC RULES

Also, the extreme cold is awfully hard on weak batteries too.

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Ironhorse1077

Thanks for the reply.  That is one of the things I checked - the electrical, but I was just looking for LOOSE connections.  But I wonder how two days of exposure could make a difference as far as amount of corrosion goes?  There still looks to be the same amount of rust that was on the connections when she was starting.  ?? 

 

****Just saw a post by gwest_ca re: grounding wire from the rubber mounting plate under the engine to the frame.  I will check in the morning.

 

Thank you both for your help.

 

And thank you also AMC Rules - the battery is new also.  

280 - 330 CCA  and only a few months since purchase.

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illinilefttackle

Take one car jumper cable & hook it to negative Battery terminal & engine block. Then try to start it as usual-This should tell you if you have a Ground problem- Thanks- Al

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Ironhorse1077

Thanks - so, if it starts, there is a ground issue as it is being bypassed with this technique?

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gwest_ca
7 hours ago, Ironhorse1077 said:

Thanks - so, if it starts, there is a ground issue as it is being bypassed with this technique?

Exactly.

 

Ideally the negative ground cable should go to the engine block and then the ground strap or cable from the engine to the tractor frame grounds the rest of the tractor. Reason being the starter is the largest single electrical load the battery will ever see. After 30+ years of service corrosion and oxidation of the steel to steel contact points can reduce the common ground these models depend on.

 

Garry

 

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squonk

Cables! Cables! Cables! 

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Mr. 856
11 hours ago, Ironhorse1077 said:

Thanks for the reply.  That is one of the things I checked - the electrical, but I was just looking for LOOSE connections.  But I wonder how two days of exposure could make a difference as far as amount of corrosion goes?  There still looks to be the same amount of rust that was on the connections when she was starting.  ?? 

 

****Just saw a post by gwest_ca re: grounding wire from the rubber mounting plate under the engine to the frame.  I will check in the morning.

 

Thank you both for your help.

 

And thank you also AMC Rules - the battery is new also.  

280 - 330 CCA  and only a few months since purchase.

If the corrosion was already there then it can happen at anytime. Its just a matter of when it will happen. Corrosion and wiring don't mix.

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Ironhorse1077

The ground cable from the battery just attaches to the frame next to the battery - right next to the throttle cable which was occasionally contacting the threads of the bolt holding the ground cable from the battery - thus sparking when key was turned.  Hope that didn't damage anything.

  So I should have a longer cable that reaches the engine block?  There is a cable that goes from one engine mounting bolt to the other - seemingly doing nothing. (?)

Very cold.  Next step I guess is to thaw out the wrenches and take apart, sand/remove rust, and re-install any and all electrical connections I can find.

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DennisThornton

If it started recently but today is real cold and she cranks slowly then I'd jump it and buy a new battery if she cranks good and starts.  Could be other things but that's where I would start.  Cold reducing all batteries's capacity and really tests the weak and dying ones!

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gwest_ca

If cleaning up the cables and tightening them gets it going wait for a better day to make changes.

 

Perhaps the cable you have now will reach one of the starter mounting bolts. Then just need to make sure the short one is good between the engine metal and the tractor frame.

 

Garry

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WH nut

"The ground cable from the battery just attaches to the frame next to the battery - right next to the throttle cable which was occasionally contacting the threads of the bolt holding the ground cable from the battery - thus sparking when key was turned.  Hope that didn't damage anything. "   Start there, clean up your connection. Sparks mean bad connection.

 

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Ironhorse1077

Thanks for all the advice.  It may be a day or two now until I can turn some wrenches again.  : (

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Ironhorse1077

So, I finally got some time to try bypassing the ground and it still wouldn't start - just a clicking sound.  It will start with a jump and it runs good.  Am I correct in thinking,......starter(?) being that a loose ground does NOT seem to be the issue?

 

 

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953 nut

If the starter will work properly with a jumper then it is not the problem. Have you replaced the ground cable with one that will bolt onto the engine? The sparking you spoke of tells me the throttle cable has a better ground than the ground cable, fix that problem first. 

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gwest_ca

If it starts with a jump there can't be anything wrong with the starter.

 

For some reason you are not getting enough power to the starter to make it run.

Got a voltmeter? Check the voltage at the battery, at the battery cable on the solenoid and at the starter cable on the starter or solenoid all while trying to crank it.

 

Check the voltage between the engine block and the negative battery post when trying to start. It should be 0 volts. If they is some there the ground is bad.

 

Try jumping to the small terminal on the solenoid.

 

Garry

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TDF5G

Sounds like a weak/bad battery to me.

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can whlvr

sounds like the solenoid to me,ive replaced dozens over the years,they don't last for ever

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woodchuckfarmer

Id pull the battery ,charge it and have it load tested. See how good it is.

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Ironhorse1077

So I got a battery tester and had a bad battery that would take a charge but not hold it.  Addressed that and she was running for a couple days and I thought really positive thoughts as I attached the plow and chains yesterday.  Then today I got a couple hours of plowing done before the transmission died.  Something must have broken - the handle that you pull up to disengage the hydro transmission is all the way down to the point that I really cant' get a good hold of it like before (it would always be up above the console a little so that you could get your fingers around it) and the forward/reverse lever is not engaging anything - it is loose.

So,......tractor blocking the driveway...........have plenty of firewood, chicken soup and cocoa,........and a well used snow shovel.  :unsure::huh:

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WH nut
1 hour ago, Ironhorse1077 said:

So I got a battery tester and had a bad battery that would take a charge but not hold it.  Addressed that and she was running for a couple days and I thought really positive thoughts as I attached the plow and chains yesterday.  Then today I got a couple hours of plowing done before the transmission died.  Something must have broken - the handle that you pull up to disengage the hydro transmission is all the way down to the point that I really cant' get a good hold of it like before (it would always be up above the console a little so that you could get your fingers around it) and the forward/reverse lever is not engaging anything - it is loose.

So,......tractor blocking the driveway...........have plenty of firewood, chicken soup and cocoa,........and a well used snow shovel.  :unsure::huh:

Check your belt and idler pulley

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Ironhorse1077

Bad news, but I guess it's not the end of the world.......chains must have loosened enough to clip/wear away/break the thin metal band that goes around the smooth metal pulley type thingamabob coming out the driver side of the transmission.  :(  It seemed to have enough clearance when I started out.

I can deal with the C-161 out of commission for a bit, but I can't seem to get the push valve loosened to tow/push it.  There simply aren't long handled 5/16" wrenches strong enough to turn it - yet.  Even with the seat pan off - as you know - there is not a lot of room for a pair of hands in there.  I was contemplating cutting a small piece out of the left console cover (?) in order to be able to get a piece of flat steel with a 5/16" square hole around the end of the push valve.  Of course it would have to be about 16" long in order to get enough leverage.  :wacko:  And I am wholeheartedly opposed to cutting away any of the original metal.

I guess I can build a heavy duty dolly for the rear end so I can tow it out of the way with another horse. :huh: 

 

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Ironhorse1077

Okay,......guess this thread has fizzled out.  Thanks to some advice via telephone, I have learned that I have a broken brake (band?).  So,.....i guess I'll look around for a broken down hydro somewhere to harvest a brake band.  Really not liking the location of the push valve on the C-161 - makes it near impossible to get any leverage on it.  :wacko:  Going to try a sled under the rear end to pull it up the lane w/o harming the transmission.  :wacko:

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