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formariz

What is destroying my belts?

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3 hours ago, TDF5G said:

I don't understand the point of re-posting these pics.  ??

:think:

I think he has posted new pics of the current belt ....   not re-posted pics.

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This post has been going on for a long time now with no victory.  Many truly concerned experienced people have been giving their best advice of experience. There are scenarios that need direct observation of the problem to gather information that has somehow been missed after all this time.  My opinion is that it is now best to employ a sage mechanic to be physically present with this machinery. 

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I assure you that @formariz is quite capable and will get this figured out. :angry-nono: With his abilities and the help from the others here I think I can say nobody else could do better. :)

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Racinbob,   I found your comment a bit personally rude to me.  I am a professional mechanic in industry.  A facet being V belt drives.  I said I was giving my opinion and not attacking the person asking for help at all.

The post started in January . Yes?    I know from my experience not to ever judge a person's abilities without personally knowing them for a long while.   To personally know a person I mean being a friend that shakes their hand at least 12 times per year.  Being identified as a Newbie does not identify them as being a mechanical Greenhorn.    Wheel Horse tractors have been an interest of mine for awhile. I just now have time to join Red Square and view the forum occasionally.

Edited by Robert of Lake Michigan
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Give this a try ....  get some silicone grease (dielectric grease) and coat the belt with it.  Put some in your hand and pull the belt thru it. Really work it in.  Any excess on the belt is OK.  

The belt won't slip... don't worry about that.   Long ago a Gates belt rep told me to do this.  Also never use aerosol belt dressing.   I had an Allis Chalmers with a belt problem.   I could only make one pass around the yard without flipping the belt.   After the silicone grease it was good forever.   Try it ... what's to lose?

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2 hours ago, Robert of Lake Michigan said:

This post has been going on for a long time now with no victory.  Many truly concerned experienced people have been giving their best advice of experience. There are scenarios that need direct observation of the problem to gather information that has somehow been missed after all this time.  My opinion is that it is now best to employ a sage mechanic to be physically present with this machinery. 

 

 

Life has been crazy as always so I have not been here much. There has been a victory! As per my last updates #145 &#142, new belt is still going with no issues whatsoever. Last change in deck was to relocate idler to the outer hole in tension bar.Prior to that problem persisted. The only last thing I need to do to confirm solution is to actually use another brand belt to see what happens. If everything is OK with that one we can safely assume that the lack of proper tension was the problem. If problem reoccurs with that belt, then belt quality/type will be the problem.

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11 hours ago, formariz said:

 

 

 

Life has been crazy as always so I have not been here much. There has been a victory! As per my last updates #145 &#142, new belt is still going with no issues whatsoever. Last change in deck was to relocate idler to the outer hole in tension bar.Prior to that problem persisted. The only last thing I need to do to confirm solution is to actually use another brand belt to see what happens. If everything is OK with that one we can safely assume that the lack of proper tension was the problem. If problem reoccurs with that belt, then belt quality/type will be the problem.

Well, this affirms what I thought to be correct.  I thought the problem was solved and I just didn't understand the ressurection of this thread with the pics being repeated from May 15.  I've followed this thread from the beginning and I thought I had missed something.  No big deal. :)

Edited by TDF5G

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Hello Formariz,

Your BEM (Belt Eating Monster) issue has been a thoroughly interesting read for me over the last couple of days....with interruptions of course.  The expertise and experience shared on this website is unparalleled.  Please allow me to offer - as someone above called it - my 2 cents.  My knowledge of V-belts comes from being an engineer in several industrial plants. and I will open with apologies to anyone offended because I do not intend to lecture.  Just hoping to share experience learned the hard way so others don't have to.

Ed Kennell was one of the first I noted to mention the tensioning part of the problem.  I had surmised that to be a key to what was causing the BEM.  There are also a couple of other things that happen when belts are run too long without enough tension.  The v-grooves in the pulleys wear...not just wider but they wear curved wider sides in the grooves.  Proper v-belt function depends on having the correct profile belt in a matching profile groove.  When the two do not match you will get belt slippage and wear in both the driver and the driven sheaves.  (on fans in plants this was common and manifested as a belt squeak - very loud at times.)  When replacing the belts, it is always a good idea to gauge the grooves in all the sheaves.  You can get plastic sheave gauges from an industrial supply.  Like Grainger.   And you NEVER want the belt to contact the bottom of the sheave groove.  The drive surface is the sloped sides of belt and sheave.

I know you said you replaced the sheaves on you mower, but in one of the later photos it appeared you were still using the original main 2-grooved sheave where the engine belt connects.  ALSO, I would not rely on just the sheaves being "new".  With your experiences on this BEM, I would gauge even the new sheaves.....all around the sheave.

Very glad you found a belt that seems to work much better.  And that it turned out to be the least expensive belt.

Another issue is the way a v-belt acts when it wraps around a sheave:  as it wraps, it acts like our bellies do when we lean down to get a beer from the bottom shelf in the fridge; It forms a "belly" that squeezes out to the sides.  This "belly" formation results in heating as it crowds its way into the groove.  One solution is to use what Gates Belts used to call a "grip notch" belt.  Notches in the belly of the belt allow it to wrap the sheave and close up the spaces between the notches without squeezing so much out against the sheave.  They run cooler and are always rated higher horsepower than a straight bellied v-belt.  Just be careful that grass, etc cannot be drawn in between the sheave and belt during operation.  That does not appear to be a problem with your manicured lawn - beautiful BTW. 

When I was working every day in a plant, I always had a handy copy of the Gates Belt green catalog.  (even used it on my PE exam)  Checked for you on line and here is a link to their current "design manual".  Please check out the TROUBLESHOOTING section that starts on page D39  I trust you will find other sections interesting and useful.

http://www.gates.com/~/media/files/gates/industrial/power-transmission/catalogs/heavy_duty_vbelt_drive_design_manual.pdf?la=en 

Especially its discussion on aligning sheaves with a straight edge.  (page D31)

OK...  So I prevaricated.   This entry now looks like a lecture.  Sorry.  From my teaching days.

Thanx BuKu,  And good luck !

Vic Smith, PE

 

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Excellent write up and information Vixmith :handgestures-thumbupright:

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                                                      :text-yeahthat:  Great info....:thanks:   Vic.

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I certainly agree with the professional engineer Mr. Smith, he is most certainly high above me.  Everything he has said could be understood by a formally educated mechanic.  Please consider though that a raw edged cogged  V belt was not originally designed for these Wheel Horse mower decks in this era. But the certainly can reap the benefit of increased efficiency from reducing the HP loss from the belt flexure heat loss in that belt zone.  All the inspection considerations that Mr. Smith illustrated are basic to maintenance inspection.

When a mechanic is having continued difficulty over an extended period of time it most often helpful to call in another mechanic to personally view the problem.  I have never been too proud not to call in another person to view something that I am having trouble with.

I never intended to insult any person here.

 

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Hey guys I recognize you all got skills but just remember you just helped someone. Everyone has probably got their own problems they are dealing with outside of this forum, so lets not bring that element in here. It's about the Wheel Horses.

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On 5/16/2016 at 4:41 PM, grasscutter said:

Hi, what happened next, Im dying to know?. This is as good as Agatha Christie. what was it that killed the belts

And if nothing else it would be instructive. Are you using the same deck this year..........

Andy

I agree....

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Hello, Fellows of the Red Horse.

I have been away from this interesting BEM challenge and just returned to scan the entries.  So far, I missed the part where formariz offered the conclusion to his way over-directed, almost-too-much-help-offered studies and trials.

Please let me know what the conclusion, final conclusion, is.  

My summer has been put on hold awaiting such revelation.  

Thanx BuKu,

VGS

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So I am happy to report that the problem was solved completely. It was an improperly tensioned belt. After moving bracket to second hole no more problems with belt. I actually changed to two other brand belts during summer just to verify that problem was not with actual belts. It is just puzzling why it was happening now since it was obvious that bracket had always been in the original position.

I just don't even want to think about it anymore since it nearly drove me insane, or like my wife questions "insane? even more?"

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It is an excellent read Cas...you have to admit that.  :)  and a Happy Ending.

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Good to hear we have finally exterminated the notorious BEM.       I never doubted that we would conquer the monster.

:text-thankyoublue:    for the update.

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