What is destroying my belts?

[N3PUY 1,031]

I would say that the only way to burn a belt that deep is for the belt to stop moving and the drive pulley to wear into it.   If the belt breaks it is usually because a blade hit something and stopped.  I think the problem is either the right or left spindle is locking up.  All those cracks are from excessive load.  Check the 2 outer spindles very, very closely.  

[Ed Kennell 35,768]

On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 8:15 PM, formariz said:

 

 

 

I keep looking back at these first pics and those belts look like the notches had to be worn in there with a stationary belt on a rotating pulley. That can only happen with a stationary deck belt and a rotating drive pulley.  But surely this would have caused some smoke and burning rubber  smell.

  So Jim, I do not see any way the mule drive ,PTO belt, or PTO  could cause this damage. 

The fact that the bar slots and the guide bolts do not have the same C-C spacing is still a concern to me.  This is defeating some of the travel that was designed into the tensioning system.  Although it appears the slots are not bottoming out with the current arrangement.       I would like to inspect the center deck belt pulley to be certain there is not a wide spot that may be letting the belt touch the bottom of the pulley instead of the sides .     Maybe we can do this at the show.

4 hours ago, N3PUY said:

I would say that the only way to burn a belt that deep is for the belt to stop moving and the drive pulley to wear into it. 

 

                                                                                                   Exactly.... looks like those notches were machined in there by a stationary belt and a rotating drive pulley.

[elcamino/wheelhorse 9,044]

I hope he brings the deck to the show, I think my brain cells have reached the limit on ideas. The flat spot or one of the pulleys hanging up seem to be the only answer.  It kinda reminds me of my El Camino being so lite in the rear ,so times I can get a chirp from the rear tires without meaning to . Just a quick sound , with the tractor noise and normal deck noises , he may not even notice the "chirp" from the belt .

[WHX?? 46,770]

How's the new cheap belt holding up?

[formariz 11,849]

So here is the last update on the BEM. These are photos of its latest casualty. It just got too big and popped off pulleys. A total of about 8 hours run time. I just wanted to use it to its last leg prior to putting the cheap belt on which I now have done.

After countless hours of checking and thinking and watching this thing I still don't have a definite clue to what is going on. I think I am going to need therapy after this so I got the still out and I am going to play chemist now. So here is a summary of things up to today:

 

1- Deck has new pulleys correct to specifications

2- Deck has new idler correct to specifications

3- Deck has new spring correct to specifications

4- Deck has good blades constantly sharpened and balanced

5- Deck shell is not bent, twisted or structurally unsound.

6- Deck has new bearings on sound spindles.

7- Deck has good straight tension bar which works properly

9- All pulleys are perfectly aligned.

10-Spindles are square to deck top

11- Everything rotates smoothly and accurately

12- Spindles do not absolutely bind or stop under load

13- Deck cuts perfectly -next to a professional walk behind Gravely i had its the best cutting deck up to date and its a close second to the Gravely!!

14- Deck runs quite and smooth

15- Tension was increased substantially by moving idler to forward hole

16- Belt has plenty of tension ( very difficult to put in now)

17- Last but not least, deck ruins belts exactly the same way as before any changes were made.

 

 

Now looking at this latest belt which has been closely watched since new here is what I have watched:

 

1- Belt starts showing straight cracks  after about two hours of usage

2- After 4 hours belt has numerous deep cracks

3- Belt does not have burn marks or any indication that it is working over a stopped pulley

4- Sides of belt do not show unusual wear at all, like exposed cords.

5- Cracks get deep as it progresses all the way to back of belt

6- Incredibly with the exception of two belts from Toro, back of belt never fails and it is intact.

7- Chunks start coming off belt. They are sheared or pulled off , not burned off. ( seems to happen as belt goes around idler bent backwards when cracks are close together)

8- Belt is too hot for the touch when compared to PTO/Mule drive belt which is also runs close to muffler but it is relatively "cool" to the touch

 

 

 

 

Now, having gone though all of this, the only thing that it is absolutely clear is that belt is running too hot!!

Is it possible that belt was already originally running too hot prior to moving idler to forward hole???

Would that mean, too much tension already or incorrect pulley/belt combination even though everything is to specs????

 

 

Edited May 22, 2016 by formariz

[Racinbob 10,277]

I've stayed out of this because you all are hitting on everything and I don't have any new ideas. I don't know if this will help but it maybe it will put a different twist on your thinking which sometimes helps 

 

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LEVxqa8UFXHaYAzVZXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTExaWVyM3B1BGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDREZENl8xBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1463968283/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.russet.co.nz%2fdocuments%2fV-belt_troubleshooting_guide.pdf/RK=0/RS=zbzLgkqR.qJYzFMljQS_npWUMvY-

Edited May 22, 2016 by Racinbob

[elcamino/wheelhorse 9,044]

Racinbob, thanks for the link ,there is a lot of good information from Carlisle that could benefit all of us. I even printed to have on hand when needed. 

[Racinbob 10,277]

I just downloaded the Carlisle service manual. There sure is a lot of good info in it.

[Terry M-(Moderator) 2,125]

Cas, I know your up to your ears in comments..And I know it's already been said..But....It sure looks like the belt is intermittently stopping while the deck drive pulley maybe still moving.    Maybe put some test paint markings on the pulleys ?.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Terry M

[formariz 11,849]

Here is the latest update. Over 4 hours on the new $8.00 Chinese belt and NOT one crack in site. Too early but if the problem was the belts from genuine Toro, to Napa, Tractor supply, and others either made in USA or Mexico, I am going to have to eat my shoe!

 

Edited May 28, 2016 by formariz

[squonk 38,920]

I could see one belt having a problem but not all of them. I sold Gates for 10 years and if a new belt did what yours was doing I'd have the deck in the shop myself and 9 times out of 10 it would be a bad spindle bearing or a sharp spot/bent pulley. Napa (Gates) Green belts are pretty tough. I would run a belt on a snowblower attachment with a single twist in it for 4 seasons without wrecking it like your belts have shown. One note. The cheap belts are not always built with the same sidewall angles. I had a customer with a snow plow pump that the belt would slip on new or old. We put a cheapie belt on and the problem was gone. Are all the pulleys new? 

[formariz 11,849]

50 minutes ago, squonk said:

I could see one belt having a problem but not all of them. I sold Gates for 10 years and if a new belt did what yours was doing I'd have the deck in the shop myself and 9 times out of 10 it would be a bad spindle bearing or a sharp spot/bent pulley. Napa (Gates) Green belts are pretty tough. I would run a belt on a snowblower attachment with a single twist in it for 4 seasons without wrecking it like your belts have shown. One note. The cheap belts are not always built with the same sidewall angles. I had a customer with a snow plow pump that the belt would slip on new or old. We put a cheapie belt on and the problem was gone. Are all the pulleys new? 

All pulleys are new. Check post #130.

[squonk 38,920]

Only other thing I can hink of is an issue with the belt bending backwards breaking the cords. Some of the cheaper belts are more pliable. If that belt lasts, I'd get a few more to keep on hand.

 

At work we've had trouble with belts coming apart on roof fans. Simple drives with spring tensioners. We had to switch to notched industrial belts.

[formariz 11,849]

1 minute ago, squonk said:

Only other thing I can hink of is an issue with the belt bending backwards breaking the cords. Some of the cheaper belts are more pliable. If that belt lasts, I'd get a few more to keep on hand.

 

At work we've had trouble with belts coming apart on roof fans. Simple drives with spring tensioners. We had to switch to notched industrial belts.

I am beginning to think the bending backwards over the idler certainly had a lot to do with it. This belt feels totally different from the others, it is more "rubbery" and certainly more pliable. After what I have been through with this deck I do have another 6 on hand.

[Rob.A.700 306]

my every thing else is new but the deck shell itself I do recall you mentioning that is had been repaired/ reinforced. I do suppose some flex might be required... doubt that is the case I think i have a couple of those decks laying around I will have to take a peek at them. All older equipment gets complacent once you start monkeying around with it stuff starts going wrong. Step one was putting it on a different tractor  

[formariz 11,849]

New update. 8 hours and $8.00 belt is still intact. Not one crack or any signs of stress. I hope I don't jinx it by celebrating early but none of the other belts survived 8 hours. Been using deck without guards so I can take close looks at spindles as it cuts, and this thing cannot run any smoother or true. Keeping my fingers crossed.

[formariz 11,849]

Going on about 12 hours and new belt still intact. As incredible as it may seem and not knowing why yet, I am beginning to be confident belts were the issue. With everything changed I pretty much have a new deck now. This thing cuts really well. Its been a real battle. I think I am also going to stick with this brand of belt for everything now since it passed the durability test on the BEM here.

[Ed Kennell 35,768]

I'm glad it is working, but I really think  some combination of changes you  made to the idler pulley location and belt length allowed the tensioning system to finally work as designed.

There have to be thousands of these same decks with many different makes of belts that are working fine,   as they should if the tensioning bar is not restricted and the spring can maintain the constant correct tension.

[WHX?? 46,770]

Hopefully the BEM will not return!

[formariz 11,849]

5 hours ago, Ed Kennell said:

I'm glad it is working, but I really think  some combination of changes you  made to the idler pulley location and belt length allowed the tensioning system to finally work as designed.

There have to be thousands of these same decks with many different makes of belts that are working fine,   as they should if the tensioning bar is not restricted and the spring can maintain the constant correct tension.

 

It definitely will put my mind at rest if I know for sure what it was the cause of it all.  Since all belts failed after all new parts were installed and the only untested theory is really the increased tension by moving idler forward ( I used an already damaged belt after that), I am going to get another brand belt hopefully a Toro and test that one . If no problems, I think it is safe to assume that tension was the problem. If it fails, I guess then we have to blame the belts.

[TDF5G 2,051]

Sounds like you just about have the problem narrowed down.  Glad it's working for you now!

[elcamino/wheelhorse 9,044]

I sure am glad it is working.

[ohiofarmer 3,157]

I have not had time to read all of this, so excuse me if this has already been said. I had a good bit of trouble with another belt [transmission belt on 520H.]  The inside of the belt was hitting the outside of the belt close to the idler, due to vibration. Most of it was due to a worn bushing thingy on the idler arm. Very poor design as the bushing was either very thin or the frame of the tractor served as the bushing. So then I had a rebuild problem on my hands.

 After that was solved, the vibration was still an issue, but not as serious. Also the spring that tensions the belt also keeps breaking. Just the other day, i substituted a bungee cord as the tensioner spring just to make the tractor move. The vibration has all but disappeared, much to my surprise. i guess the lesson learned is you can have too much tension and that sets up vibration, and rubber might make a smoother spring than steel. I also have a Toro/WH 8speed and the pulley tensioner is an air shock. No vibration issues with that one, so it looks like the engineers saw the need to improve it over the steel spring

 

 In looking at your first pictures closely, the inside of that belt looks very abraded--even where there are no chunks missing. The pulleys would not do that, only the other belt IMHO. The deck on my Raider is 42" and it was a hot mess with a jammed tensioner. i substituted a strip of formica in place of the botton Delrin strips and polished the tension bar and infused the bar with clear plumbers grease, wiping off the excess.That formica strip has probably twenty times the bearing surface of the two Delrin strips formerly installed I also do not run the spindle guard and blow the dust out from the top of the deck. i am pleased with the action of the tensioner now.

Good luck with the problem and I hope my observations and experience with my three tractors will help someone

Edited June 22, 2016 by ohiofarmer

[ohiofarmer 3,157]

On 5/16/2016 at 0:58 PM, formariz said:

So after another 4 hours of mowing I am pretty sure I still have a problem . I did keep old belt already with some cracks in it but now as you can see from photos it is much worst. It already has some of the usual chunks missing . I video taped deck engaged at full speed and as you can see it runs smooth and true. Belt is not flopping around at all. I had even resharpened already sharpened blades.

I am stumped!!!

I am going to now change belt to a new one and see how that goes. These new ones I got now are the cheapest ones I found for $8.00 each shipping included. Hopefully that is the secret, a cheap belt.

.IMG_0225.MOV

 

[TDF5G 2,051]

I don't understand the point of re-posting these pics.  ??