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formariz

What is destroying my belts?

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dcrage

Geez I wish my decks ran that smoothly and quiet -- They don't but I am not loosing belts every time I use it -- Hope this gets figured out!

 

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Moparfanforever

I noticed on you deck that on the center spindle you have your belt running on the smaller pulley and in post #60 that person has it running on the big pulley ??

 

Maybe that is a problem ?? 

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gwest_ca

This is a long shot.

If a flat pulley is actually concave in the center a belt will try to climb the sides. They naturally climb to the highest OD. Sounds odd but that is what they do.

Ideally the center of the flat portion should be slightly convex to keep the belt centered in the pulley width.

 

Those with band saw experience are aware of this. A local here built himself a band saw for milling logs. He used trailer wheels and tires for the band to run on. The blade would come off in a single turn of the wheel so he ground the tread concave thinking it would force the blade to the center of the wheel. Then the band would come off in 1/2 a turn. Knowing I had a factory built mill he asked me what I thought of the problem. I suggested he try the skinny rounded donut spare tires found in the trunks of most cars at the time - the ones with 60 psi in them. The high pressure was necessary for the application and why he originally used trailer tires and wheels. Magically the blade stays in the center of that rounded tire and even under severe load he can't force the blade off the wheels.

 

Garry 

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WHX??

Question for you Formariz .. has this deck always done this or something that just started?

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formariz
1 hour ago, WHX61/3 said:

Question for you Formariz .. has this deck always done this or something that just started?

 

This deck came with a black hood I got locally. I started using it because it fits in areas my regular 48" deck does not. It also has a much better cut since it is smaller . It always did this since I first started using it. It had not been used in a few years but it had a belt on it which it was clearly used a lot. Such belt however had no discernible damage, so I left it. Sure enough after half of the season it snapped and that's when I started seeing the kind of damage I got now.

Edited by formariz

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WHX??

What horse are you running it on now? Any chance you could be running too much HP into it? Over working it that is??  One wouldn't think so but another long shot. Any chance you can put it back on the black hood and see how it does?  Keep an eye on the new cheapy belt, still should get a full season or two out of it. Does look like it gives a nice cut.

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formariz
22 minutes ago, WHX61/3 said:

What horse are you running it on now? Any chance you could be running too much HP into it? Over working it that is??  One wouldn't think so but another long shot. Any chance you can put it back on the black hood and see how it does?  Keep an eye on the new cheapy belt, still should get a full season or two out of it. Does look like it gives a nice cut.

 

It came on a C125 and now its used on a C120, so the horsepower is the same. That's not a bad idea changing it back to the original tractor. I think I tried everything else. I changed it to the C 120 because its a Hydro which I like better and I get better traction if things are a little wet since it has the traction on both wheels. Only things not changed on it now are the shell and the blades which are essentially new. Speaking of blades the center one is longer than the side ones. Is that correct ??

Edited by formariz

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formariz
11 minutes ago, formariz said:

 

I

 

2 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

This is a long shot.

If a flat pulley is actually concave in the center a belt will try to climb the sides. They naturally climb to the highest OD. Sounds odd but that is what they do.

Ideally the center of the flat portion should be slightly convex to keep the belt centered in the pulley width.

 

Those with band saw experience are aware of this. A local here built himself a band saw for milling logs. He used trailer wheels and tires for the band to run on. The blade would come off in a single turn of the wheel so he ground the tread concave thinking it would force the blade to the center of the wheel. Then the band would come off in 1/2 a turn. Knowing I had a factory built mill he asked me what I thought of the problem. I suggested he try the skinny rounded donut spare tires found in the trunks of most cars at the time - the ones with 60 psi in them. The high pressure was necessary for the application and why he originally used trailer tires and wheels. Magically the blade stays in the center of that rounded tire and even under severe load he can't force the blade off the wheels.

 

Garry 

 

Since I am very familiar with band saws I took a long good look at it while running with blades engaged. Although belt always stays in the lower part of idler it is straight from there to other pulleys. Idler is not pulling it  down from its natural location dictated by horizontal alignment of pulleys. Even if idler has tendency to pull it one way, it is being overridden by the pulleys since horizontally belt is absolutely straight.. I will however just for the sake of trying everything, remove idler and turn it upside down to see if condition stays the same or belt moves to upper part of idler.

12 hours ago, Moparfanforever said:

I noticed on you deck that on the center spindle you have your belt running on the smaller pulley and in post #60 that person has it running on the big pulley ??

 

Maybe that is a problem ?? 

 

It is the way it must go on this deck set up. Lower pulley is the one aligned with spindle pulleys.

Edited by formariz
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clip

Are you running the mule drive off the inner/larger or outer/smaller groove?

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formariz
5 minutes ago, clip said:

Are you running the mule drive off the inner/larger or outer/smaller groove?

Running it out of inner larger one. Belt will not be aligned properly out of the other one.image.jpeg

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clip

Under size sheaves can cause overheating leading to the cracking you're seeing. You've verified all are the correct diameter? Checked angle/depth with a plastic belt gauge?

 

edit: have you tried the old idler and sheave you mentioned replacing at the beginning of this thread? There have been so many ideas I can't keep track of them.

Edited by clip
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formariz
1 hour ago, clip said:

Under size sheaves can cause overheating leading to the cracking you're seeing. You've verified all are the correct diameter? Checked angle/depth with a plastic belt gauge?

 

edit: have you tried the old idler and sheave you mentioned replacing at the beginning of this thread? There have been so many ideas I can't keep track of them.

Never checked angles but they are correct # replacements . Diameters are correct on all. 

Exactly same thing happened to belts with all the old parts.

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formariz

So I have continued to use this belt just trying to figure this out and as you can see from video gets worst each time. One would think that something this severe wold be obvious to see the problem! It's interesting that cracks and missing chunks have all same angle on their side. Kind of a little rounded. I watched the whole system under load(cutting) while someone else drove it and it is absolutely straight tracking on belt without any jumping. 

 

All research i do I do on belt issues point to heat or and sheave design. Does anyone know what all of these components are supposed to rotate at? Also would a slightly wider belt fit a little differently on the pulleys and  run a little cooler ?

I can't seem to be able to attach video for some reason!!

 

Edited by formariz

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elcamino/wheelhorse

Formariz , It finally stopped raining today, I am going to pull my deck tomorrow after cutting grass to see if I see any difference between my deck and yours. Maybe something will jump out as being different.

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gwest_ca

Most mowers run close to the 19,200 feet per minute blade tip speed maximum governed by the blade police.

 

Garry

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elcamino/wheelhorse

Formariz , I took pictures of my deck today , I hope that I can get the attached . Me and puter don't together sometimes. I haven't the time to compare my pictures to yours.

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Robert of Lake Michigan

As a retired field service mechanic in a different field than this, at the start of my career I would receive an emergency call with a brief description of the issue then tried in my mind to anticipate the problem as I drove to the site.  Time passes and I decide I can't see the problem when I can't see it.   With the age of this Wheel Horse machinery in some cases, maybe yours, it is time to have some other eyes investigate your situation.  I'm not encouraging you stop trying but you decide and I hope to your delight a revelation is revealed to you and then the repair can be made.  Maybe a visiting friend with simply another view can see it, that has happened to all of us I think.  Also having hands to wiggly and test parts is a thing we can't do.  A person needs to do a field check of your blade spindles.

Edited by Robert of Lake Michigan
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TDF5G
14 minutes ago, elcamino/wheelhorse said:

 

Formariz , I took pictures of my deck today , I hope that I can get the attached . Me and puter don't together sometimes. I haven't the time to compare my pictures to yours.

 

Which hole is your idler pulley in?  

 

I was hoping to get my deck back together and compare it also, but I have not had time to even look at it.  

 

P.S.  In case your wondering, I do my posting when I'm at work in between customers and phone calls.  Don't have time for RS when I'm at home.:)

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grasscutter

This serial is running too slow for me, wish I was in NJ

re posts 102 and 108, the three spindle pulleys are definitely all the same diameter? - just wondered if the blade speeds weren't matched.  Can the driving pulley stack actually be fitted the other way up  ?

But ofcourse if it was working fine before (you suppose?).....what did you do to it between then and when it started chewing belts. I don't believe in coincidence :) 

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formariz

Jim

I don't know if it is the angle of the photo but your idler looks much bigger than mine (story of my life). Mine has a 3"diameter. I see that your also belt rides on the bottom of the idler like mine.I actually reversed idler and it goes back to bottom. Do you have a digital tach so you could tell me what RPM your pulleys rotate at? Is your center blade larger than the others?

 

4 hours ago, Robert of Lake Michigan said:

As a retired field service mechanic in a different field than this, at the start of my career I would receive an emergency call with a brief description of the issue then tried in my mind to anticipate the problem as I drove to the site.  Time passes and I decide I can't see the problem when I can't see it.   With the age of this Wheel Horse machinery in some cases, maybe yours, it is time to have some other eyes investigate your situation.  I'm not encouraging you stop trying but you decide and I hope to your delight a revelation is revealed to you and then the repair can be made.  Maybe a visiting friend with simply another view can see it, that has happened to all of us I think.  Also having hands to wiggly and test parts is a thing we can't do.  A person needs to do a field check of your blade spindles.

That would be actually great but unfortunately I am the only wheel horse guy around here. I may actually be the only guy around here that cuts his own lawn! Believe me, spindles are fine. Totally rebuilt with new bearings run true and smooth. Same problem as before.  I am tempted to take the tractor and deck to the show, and offer a prize for the person who solves this one in a couple of days. Plenty of grass to try it on there.

 

3 hours ago, grasscutter said:

This serial is running too slow for me, wish I was in NJ

re posts 102 and 108, the three spindle pulleys are definitely all the same diameter? - just wondered if the blade speeds weren't matched.  Can the driving pulley stack actually be fitted the other way up  ?

But ofcourse if it was working fine before (you suppose?).....what did you do to it between then and when it started chewing belts. I don't believe in coincidence :) 

 

The two outside spindles pulleys are the same. Center pulley is larger so is blade in it. Driving pulley has to work this way on this setup.

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elcamino/wheelhorse

I think it is the angle of the picture 3 inch idler , center blade is larger. I don't have a tach, wish I did. I have looked at your pictures , compared to mine and the look the same. I have checked belt number idler pulley number both packing slip and actual package ( I know I am nuts but have them in two places) and everything appears to match with yours. Did P O mention any problems ?  Could there be a weak place in the deck ? Old Weld? Notice any cracks in a spindle housings.After I cleaned the deck and sharpened  blades today I spun everything just to check for noises. I think you deck problem is getting  to me. Are you coming to the Big Show? If so throw deck in vehicle and we will have have everyone there , take a wack at it. Maybe an answer will appear.

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formariz

The actual deck shell has several repairs and reinforcements in the usual spots. It is however very straight, not twisted or warped. It is also rigid. I tried already to flex it using severe methods and it wont budge. Believe me, having things plumb, level, square and straight is a big part of my profession, I am quite obsessed with those things. I have a 4 foot deck on the Electro 12 that constantly gets caught and stuck  everywhere that I am constantly straightening it flexes like crazy and still has the belt that came with it about six years ago which was already old.

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grasscutter

I have a 36" deck with the middle blade a few cm longer, but all the drive pulleys are 95mm diameter, seems odd yours have different rotation speeds

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Ed Kennell
On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 8:15 PM, formariz said:

 

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I keep going back to these first pictures you posted.  Those well defined missing sections of the belt certainly look like they were machined away, and IMO the only way that could happen is if the deck belt stopped moving when the center drive pulley was turning.   But you would have to have smelled burning rubber and seen smoke if this happens.    Could that center pulley have a wide spot that allows the belt to contact the bottom of the pulley momentarily ?

 

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elcamino/wheelhorse

Ed , Could a flat spot or dragging pulley on the mule be the problem ? I think Formariz has changed or inspected every pulley , spring, bearing on the deck. I don't think the tension bar was replaced. Could the slots on the tension bar be enlarged creating a problem. Just trying to think of anything.

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