Has Anyone Went Solar? I am Starting

[HorseFixer 2,012]

• In this thread I will give a little info on how Solar Panels operate, and what is some of the technology that has changed the Solar Game. A friend of mine down in Indianapolis started monkeying around with Solar about four years ago. He has kept me up to date with his system and what he has done and I decided a few months ago to do some research for myself. I have looked at hundreds of brands of equipment and there is very much to learn if you want to have an efficient long lasting system. Technology has come a long ways and I am shocked how far they have came in the past 10 years. The inherent problem with Solar Panels hooked up just like a Batteries they are as only as strong as their weakest link. If you have for D CELL BATTERIES in a flash light, which are  in series’ For example say that 3 of them are 1.5 volts and one of them are 1.2 Volts then all 4 are now 1.2 v batteries. The same with Solar Panels if you have say an Array of 20 Solar Panels and 19 of them are in full sun and one is in the shade and only putting out 5V DC when the others are putting out 35V DC guess what? all of them are putting out 5V each. NOT ANY MORE....... Everyone knows the DC needs at some point be turned into A/C Voltage and this is usually done by a Large Inverter and depending on the size of your system Usually takes 6 to 10 KW System to do an average house That's between  24 to 40 Solar Panels Plus a couple Large Inverters These Inverters are Very Costly at about $5,000.00 to $8,000.00 each and The Panels are about $ 250.00 each plus the racking to mount them and all the wiring and Misc Items a whole system will cost easily between $12,000.00 to $24,000.00 depending how elaborate you want to go. Up until the past 4 years these panels and these BIG INVERTERS were inefficient because the technology wasn't there and Remember the weakest link lesson? One panel gets leaves on it, gets dirty, gets shaded, cloud goes over taking Ole Mr. Sunshine away there goes the efficiency on all of them right down in the CHITTER. Not anymore!   They now have Micro-Inverters Like the Enphase M-250's Each Solar panel now has its own Micro-Inverter installed on the back of them they are all daisy chained together and each individual Panel and its own Micro-Inverter adjusts itself independently for maximum efficiency. Now for the neat part... Each one of these Panels and inverters reports to network computer through a Gateway and all this data is reported on an animated computer program. It tells you how many KW's your making, per hr, per day, per week, per month, per year, and since system was started. Tells how much each panel is putting out in real time, charts all kinds of data and history to help troubleshoot system problems. These micro-inverters have more than quadrupled the efficiency of these Solar Systems. Not only that but being since they run independently of each other if one gets weak or goes out it has no effect on the others so this means you don't loose efficiency due to the WEAKEST LINK rule. The other benefit is you can start out small say 2-3 panels and keep adding more as time goes on or as the budget permits and then daisy chaining them together until you get as big as you want to be, After you have a zero -0- electric bill and your pumping your surplus  in to the grid the electric company can now pay you monthly.   

 

THE RACK & MOUNT  - Depending on where you want to mount them Roof, Ground or a combination of the two there is more systems out there than you can shake a stick at. It can get awful confusing and Very Expensive.  Luckily I am blessed in that I can fabricate and weld and have some equipment to it with. My system will be kinda roof and ground mounted as I am using the roof of my Yard Barn Shed and then sloping down to the ground. There is a company out there called IRON RIDGE and they make a neat Solar Mount System and they are pretty proud of the price at around $ 2500.00   What this company did was make a BIG MISTAKE by showing me or anyone else that goes to their website their videos on their system, provide drawings and assembly instructions and data and measurements on all their components they sell.  I downloaded all this and saved to my puker.   So what Ole Duke did was basically copy their system by using common materials available to the public or tradesman. There was already a 3” Pipe cemented in the ground for a large 10’ Sattelite dish that I just took out so I used that pole for my lower Solar Panel Grid Support. I installed two more lower 3” support poles and cemented them in the ground 4’ with 400 lbs of concrete. The poles have special fabricated caps that support a 2” Galv Pipe horizontally that in turn supports 1 5/8 12 ga Unistrut  Framework. The upper unistrut framework rests on special support flashings that support the Upper Unistrut framework and elevate it above the shingles on each support rafter and on this 16’ yard barn I am using 4. The unistrut fastened to the bottom 2” Galv Pipe with 3/8” Stainless Steel U BOLTS. On top with 3/8” Stainless bolts on  the unistrut spring nuts. I had to design and fabricate stainless steel fasteners to bolt the Solar Panel Modules down to the unistrut. That will be done with ¼” stainless hardware and ¼” spring nuts. I am using Qty 12 SolarWorld 265 W Panels with 12 Enphase M-250 Micro Inverter with and Envoy Gateway. Here is a Microsoft Paint rendition of somewhat how they will look installed. Then the Fabricated parts and ground mount rack assembled and wired. Basically at this point I am ready for the Panels and Inverters and I could be making electricity in an easy day. They are ordered and on the way and should receive them end of January. Here are some U Tube  links to my equipment below. And some pictures. Future plans include 12 more panels and Inverters for a total of 24. This amount of Panels will get me with a credit bill each month.

 

Solar World Solar Panel Modules >>>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Rh4jcE6Pk0

Ground Rack Mount Iron Ridge >>>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYdi68lN7UE

Enphase Micro-Inverters >>>                           

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DelroRJsjpI

Enphase Envoy Gateway >>>                                 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-OLb8_macg

 

~Duke

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2015 by HorseFixer
wrong picture

[JC 1965 1,528]

Great info Duke, sounds like you did your homework on this project. Thanks for the pics and for sharing. Please keep us updated on this project.     

[roadapples 6,981]

I think solar is a great idea, and as usual your doing a nice job. Just not sure how cost effective it would be for me at 67. Besides, I figure the less prepared I am for the future, the longer I`ll live. LOL

Edited December 23, 2015 by roadapples

[slammer302 2,154]

I think its a great move i hope you can keep us updated on how it works and how much it helps you electric bill  

[KC9KAS 4,741]

I bought my 1st wife a "Solar Clothes Dryer"!

 

 

 

[can whlvr 991]

so any batteries,or does all the power go into the grid,hopefully no batteries,they are a downfall to solar,up here in Ontario you cant just sell your excess hydro,only a handful of people are able to sell hydro,this happens when special deals are granted ,I have a friend who got in at the wright time,but they don't buy from everyone anymore.he got in and they pay him 4 times what we pay for a kilowatt,so it made it worth his time to put a fairly large system,but the hydro seller doesn't do this anymore,it was a trial experiment that isn't no more

[SylvanLakeWH 24,093]

Very Cool...

I've used a small 2 s.f solar panel on my boat battery on the lake all summer where there is no power - just plug it into the cig. lighter and it keeps battery topped off all summer long. It has a tender setting. I get a couple more years out of a battery this way as well...

[HorseFixer 2,012]

Thanks Guys!    Don, no I am not going Battery The Inverters pump 240V directly into the grid. What I pump in gets used up first, what I don't burn up runs the meter backwards and adds me up a credit and I burn that credit up when the sun goes down. My system will start at 12 265w panels for a total of 3180 watts but I figure I will need double that at 24 panels or about 6,300 watts. Since I know what I average in KW usage per month The Inverters tell me how much I am saving per day, week, month, & year it should be able to tell pretty quickly after a few months how I am doing. 

 

~Duke

[WNYPCRepair 1,875]

In terms of total cost, how do the two types compare? How much would your project have cost the old way vs the new way? Not in dollars, but would it be cheaper, the same, or more expensive? 

[Ken B 3,116]

Of course the Duke did his homework! It looks as though you are keeping the panels in the back yard and off the main house... Good idea. I would have to say the big down fall for me would be having all those panels on the roof of the house. It seems after Hurricane Sandy a lot of people in my area went solar and a lot of these homes used to have some very nice curb appeal, not so much anymore. Maybe if a lot more people went solar I would get used to how they look up on the roof? You'll love it if and when the power goes out that is for sure!

[AMC RULES 36,945]

Of course, in the process...    

gaining a lean to for extra  storage space is a win win too. 

[fireman 1,021]

I'll give my $.02 cents from a fire fighters view. I'll begin by saying I'm all for solar power. Like you did it Duke is perfect. Either on an accessory building or free standing is fine. But I will never recommend putting it on the roof of your primary residence or any building you really care about. Generally most roofs are rated for a certain snow/weight load. They were never designed to carry excess loads especially the newer truss construction. These panels on roofs endanger the lives of Fire Fighters even more then the normal risks. They hamper and prevent us from performing vertical ventilation which is key in properly and quickly extinguishing structure fires. This slows down the effort causing the fire to gain speed and heat which can make all parts of the buildings fail even quicker thus either injuring or killing fire fighters. The solar companies have so called training for us where they tell us to through the disconnect and just smash out the panels. That's fine an dandy but you still have the excess weight factor and additional time. It's hard enough to properly ventilate a roof under fire conditions never mind adding in the solar panel concerns. 

 

This this is just my opinion but after 30 years as a Fire Fighter and probably the equivalent of a Masters Degree in education in fire, electrical, building construction etc. I can tell you this is fact. If you have another option for a location please choose it. It could save yours, mine and someone who you care about life one day!

[SylvanLakeWH 24,093]

12 minutes ago, fireman said:

I'll give my $.02 cents from a fire fighters view. I'll begin by saying I'm all for solar power. Like you did it Duke is perfect. Either on an accessory building or free standing is fine. But I will never recommend putting it on the roof of your primary residence or any building you really care about. Generally most roofs are rated for a certain snow/weight load. They were never designed to carry excess loads especially the newer truss construction. These panels on roofs endanger the lives of Fire Fighters even more then the normal risks. They hamper and prevent us from performing vertical ventilation which is key in properly and quickly extinguishing structure fires. This slows down the effort causing the fire to gain speed and heat which can make all parts of the buildings fail even quicker thus either injuring or killing fire fighters. The solar companies have so called training for us where they tell us to through the disconnect and just smash out the panels. That's fine an dandy but you still have the excess weight factor and additional time. It's hard enough to properly ventilate a roof under fire conditions never mind adding in the solar panel concerns. 

 

This this is just my opinion but after 30 years as a Fire Fighter and probably the equivalent of a Masters Degree in education in fire, electrical, building construction etc. I can tell you this is fact. If you have another option for a location please choose it. It could save yours, mine and someone who you care about life one day!

 

Agree. Free standing is the best alternative if your community allows them. Most structures were not designed with a solar power add on in mind. Beyond the fire and load implications, they typically do not fit the aesthetics of a structure as add ons and if we ever want to see solar accepted as a norm, how it "looks" will matter. Also way easier to access and work on...

 

Great thread and comments! 

[HorseFixer 2,012]

13 hours ago, WNYPCRepair said:

In terms of total cost, how do the two types compare? How much would your project have cost the old way vs the new way? Not in dollars, but would it be cheaper, the same, or more expensive? 

 

Thanks Guys!    Sylvan, I would say a large 4K Inverter would cost $4,000.00 which the micro-inverters I'm using cost 145.00 ea X 12 = $1740.00 +plus not counting the money saved on the higher efficiency they produce. Yeah I lucked out being able to put them on the ground  where I live and still have full southern sky visibility on the winter solstice shortest day of the year today by the way. There is all kinds of ways to do it even w backup batteries for converting pwr at night. You can get very elaborate in the design and prolly have it make yer coffee in the morning.     The way I am doing it is the most cost effective way.  As Far as Safety and aesthetics go there are many ways to look at things. I did the ground mount more for maintenance PR actability.    Time will tell if it is worth it I guess. ~Duke

[RedRanger 1,468]

Agree with keeping them off the roof for all the reasons mentioned.  Also-How do you maintain/replace the roof with $5000 in glass panels and mounts all over the place?  Not practical in my view.

[Coadster32 793]

I have been contemplating going solar now for 3/4 of the year. Neighbor has a huge tree that takes my sun from 100% power production to 65%. without the tree gone, it't not worth it for me. Working on that.

 

Where I live, the city building inspector goes by what an engineer's report for roof load. WIthout it, I can't go and do this myself. Honestly, I think it's a bunch of crap. The Bill Of Materials for the panels needed for my project is under 400lbs. Mind you, that's spead out over 1/2 the entire roof, and that has the net-meter included which doesn't go on the roof. Not buying into that. According to my "engineers report", my roof rafters need to be sistered up, and my roof should have already collapsed by now. (House is 50years old and has seen hurricanes, blizzards, etc.) Also the electric company in our area says the same thing...licenced specialtist only. There's no way around it for me unfortunatly, but to go "professional", for which I am not impressed. The payback for my system would be about 9 years. That's not really too bad, but is still a sizeable investment non the less.

 

Duke...does your town building dept. break them off? Did you need permits? I know you extended the gargage without issue. Wouldn't happen where I live.   

[Buzz 502]

Regarding the fire and safety issues. If the building catches fire how do you stop the system from generating electricity on a bright sunny day? I work for the Electric Utility and if there is a fire we send a crew over to kill power to the building involved. Electricity and water from fire hoses can be a deadly combination. Just curious.

[HorseFixer 2,012]

21 hours ago, Coadster32 said:

I have been contemplating going solar now for 3/4 of the year.

 

Duke...does your town building dept. break them off? Did you need permits? I know you extended the gargage without issue. Wouldn't happen where I live.   

 

I went in front of the city with my plans diagrams and pictures in hand and got my permit. They liked the ground mounted non -visible aspect of my solar array. Buzz very good question!  The UL Rating states that the Inverter / micro-inverter needs to drop out of line and shutoff if the grid power should happen and go down, which this one does.

[WNYPCRepair 1,875]

29 minutes ago, HorseFixer said:

 

 Buzz very good question!  The UL Rating states that the Inverter / micro-inverter needs to drop out of line and shutoff if the grid power should happen and go down, which this one does.

I'm confused. If the power goes out, the solar panels stop producing power?

[Racinbob 10,271]

Yes Brian, that's correct as required by NEC 690.61 on an interactive system. If it's disconnected from the electrical production and distribution network source it is permissible to operate. You can liken it to the transfer switch requirement for a generator.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Racinbob

[Mallory 33]

Google also wilderness center solar panel array on line it was built and dedicated to Dr. Arnold Fritz and posts all up to date $ and cents info on investment just kool. He was a loving man. I miss . Good work thanks for sharing your build !

[Buzz 502]

5 hours ago, HorseFixer said:

 

I went in front of the city with my plans diagrams and pictures in hand and got my permit. They liked the ground mounted non -visible aspect of my solar array. Buzz very good question!  The UL Rating states that the Inverter / micro-inverter needs to drop out of line and shutoff if the grid power should happen and go down, which this one does.

 

I knew you wouldn't do it half-assed Duke. Good build.

[WNYPCRepair 1,875]

4 hours ago, Racinbob said:

Yes Brian, that's correct as required by NEC 690.61 on an interactive system. If it's disconnected from the electrical production and distribution network source it is permissible to operate. You can liken it to the transfer switch requirement for a generator.

 I read it as the solar cells stop producing electricity if the main grid is down, which seems the opposite of what you want to me, at least as far as producing power. 

[Racinbob 10,271]

An interactive system isn't considered a a backup system as such. It's a bit hard to explain but the last thing you want is to be feeding power into the power company's system during a power outage. It can be deadly. The inverters Dukes using are listed for an interactive system and must shut down on a power company outage. A positive separation from the 'grid' and he can resume receiving power from his system. Again, basically a transfer switch. I won't get on my soapbox about the morons that 'backfeed' their generators into their home using the dryer receptacle etc. Totally irresponsible not to mention the legal aspects. 

Sorry Duke, I don't mean to go on in your thread. It's a very interesting read and I'm enjoying it. 

Edited December 23, 2015 by Racinbob

[WNYPCRepair 1,875]

12 minutes ago, Racinbob said:

An interactive system isn't a a backup system. It's a bit hard to explain but the last thing you want is to be feeding power into the power company's system during a power outage. It can be deadly. The inverters Dukes using are listed for an interactive system and must shut down on a power company outage. A positive separation from the 'grid' and he can resume receiving power from his system. Again, basically a transfer switch. I won't get on my soapbox about the morons that 'backfeed' their generators into their home using the dryer receptacle etc. Totally irresponsible not to mention the legal aspects. 

Sorry Duke, I don't mean to go on in your thread. It's a very interesting read and I'm enjoying it. 

I understand the need to separate from the grid to supply power and not backfeed into the grid. If the system will start producing power after disconnecting from the grid, it makes sense.

On a side note, I did consider backfeeding through my welder circuit (after shutting off the mains, of course) if I have a power outage before I get a transfer switch installed. I ordered a generator head from HF, but they are backordered, so no idea when I will get it. I don't think the town will let me install the transfer switch myself, so it may be a couple of months before I can get one installed. Although they did let me wire my office myself, after taking an electrician's test. I know I didn't get all the questions right, there were some dealing with high voltage (as in over 20K volts in power distribution) that I didn't know, but the building inspector said they just wanted to be sure I knew enough to actually do the work myself, and that an electrician didn't send me in to get the permit pretending I was doing it myself.

Edited December 23, 2015 by WNYPCRepair