312/8 need new battery

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

offered as proof of real world CCA requirements

 

in the video below, an automotive scope is hooked up to measure the cranking amps going to a starter of a 6 CYLINDER car engine. Focus on the scale of the meter on the left side of the display. You see numbers like 0.8 thru 1.8.  This represents 80 to 180 amps of current draw thru the starter cable as the engine cranks.

 

The waveform will initially spike to over 200 amps but settles quickly into the 120 - 140 amps after a fraction of a second.

 

AGAIN, THIS IS A 6 CYLINDER CAR ENGINE.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKdZsWU2ZmI

 

 

Edited November 30, 2015 by Save Old Iron

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

15 hours ago, jeff lary said:

  I put the Polaris battery on 6amp 12v for almost 24 hours it initially read 4 v left to go. 24 hours later it still read 4v so I said she is junk but I checked it with a multi meter and it said 12.49v so it said battery fully charged?

 

No, a fully charged lead acid battery will measure between 12.6 and 12.7 volts.

 

Doesn't sound like a big difference, but if the battery cannot take a charge to 12.6, it is compromised.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

16 hours ago, jeff lary said:

 

Next is it possible for a electrolyte type tester to go bad? and if the electrolyte tester says no good but the multi meter says 12.49 and the charger says you are not making any progress which would you believe?  I think it responded better to a slow 2amp 12 volt charge the electrolyte was bubbling steady this am . I do believe  that you cannot heal a bad battery so no matter what voodoo you do to it a truly bad battery will be bad again very very soon. Thank all of you for taking the time to reply I respect any advice but in the end we are all different but you advice gives me more options and more to think about. Thanks Jeff

The floating ball hydrometer doesn't inspire confidence. You could buy them for 99 cents way back when and and I can't imagine they are any more reliable now after 40 years as they were when they were new. Hydrometers with a glass float tend to be the most accurate consumer level product.

 

Hydrometers are THE most accurate way of checking a lead acid battery state of charge. Again, 12.4 volts is only about 80 % charged. This does not mean the battery has any real CAPACITY left, it just suggests the remaining viable plate area in the cells is at an 80% charge. A LOAD TEST will tell you if your battery has sufficient CAPACITY to make it through the winter. Voltage is not a good indicator or battery CAPACITY.

 

The 0.5 amp indication issue - when you switched the charger to the trickle setting, the internal wiring of the battery charger applies a lower voltage to the battery. The trickle setting voltage output may be around 12+ volts where as the 10 amp setting may be around 15 volts. A lower output voltage from the charger can no longer force a higher current thru the battery so the charger ammeter reads a much lower reading. What you see is normal action from an old school charger. If you had access to a 200 amp starter/ charger, setting the charger to the 200 amp position would raise the charger voltage to over 20 volts! This higher voltage force 20+ amps thru the battery would take the electrolyte in a small battery to the boiling point very quickly. Plates would heat up in the battery and plates would warp, shorting out plates and maybe even several cells within the battery.

 

Battery Voodoo - once a battery is overcharged, lead flecks are ejected from the plates and settle into the bottom of the battery case. This lead never returns to the plates and is CAPACITY is permanently lost in the battery. Severely discharging a battery below 10 volts causes the lead paste on the plates to loosen from the support grids and this also permanently removes CAPACITY from the battery.

Constant overcharging boils off electrolyte and exposes the lead paste and grids to air. Sulfur ions in the sulfuric acid leave the acid and become a crystallized solid on the lead paste. The sulfur crystals are not able to return to the electrolyte and redissolve to return the sulfuric acid to its original specific gravity. A loss in specific gravity results in a permanent loss in chemical activity in the battery - you loose CAPACITY in the battery.

If you let the battery self discharge in the winter months, the electrolyte deposits sulfur on the lead plates. The electrolyte becomes more like water than sulfuric acid and the water can freeze on cold nights. Freezing the electrolyte warps the grid plates that contain the lead paste. If the plates are broken and large chucks of conductive plate bridge between plates in a cell, you short out a cell and now have a 10 volt battery at best - permanently.

 

A lot of failure modes are possible - and each mode has the word PERMANENT attached to it.

 

Sorry about the length of the post but I used to spec and torture test battery performance for medical devices. Amazing what can be learned from the manufacturer's reps when you pump a few beers into them. 

 

 

 

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

21 hours ago, squonk said:

I had a Black and Decker tender that kept boiling the water out of my Goldwing Battery over the winter. I only use the Genuine "Tender " brand now.

The only thing wrong with the harbor freight cheap floaters is they float at 13.x volts.

I'll post a simple update you can perform (unsolder one resistor) that will change the float voltage closer to 12.6v - can be left on the battery 24/7/365 without harm. costs about 15 cents w/ radio shack parts.

[shallowwatersailor 3,213]

I would just like to add that the few owners of diesel tractors need to factor in not only the ability to crank the engine but also the battery power to heat the glow plugs.

[jeff lary 171]

  My charger reads in Amps I should have used the correct description sorry about that. But weather it says amps volts of any other  word I guess my point was if I can even remember now ha ha, was that when I connected to my Polaris ranger battery the charger initially read 4 on the dial = (4 amps). After running on 6 amp 12 volt setting for 24 hours it still read 4 amps on the dial. Then for the hell of it I changed the changer to 2 amp 12 volt,.. I figured the battery was no good so what the hey right? Well 12-14 hours later the reading was now .5 amps as in almost a full charge ?? I am now reasearching a new charger looking like the "Schumacher 100" for my future charging needs

 

  Now as for the wheel horse,.. it has an el-cheapo Wally world battery but most likely made in the same place as many big brand batteries . Any way last fall ,...so late in the winter in fact I never got a chance to use them I added 3 led lights to the cab roof  2 were 4 watt each I think and the one on back much smaller. Knowing this will eat a little more juice I started thinking maybe I should invest in a new battery before this winter.

  Well when I went out to start it the other day without being run for awhile she really struggled to start. So back to the new battery idea thus the post.

  I agree if you have a funnel that will flow 1 gpm and you have the ability to pour 50 gmp you will receive 1 gpm with a lot left in reserve I get it I understand. But right now it has a cheap battery and when/ ( if ) I buy new  I want one better quality and bigger cca than I have now. How big is the one I have now? no freaking idea I would have to take it out to see. But if it does indeed need 200 cca to start on the average single digit day in January ok,.. but what if it sets for 3 weeks no snow happens all the time up here. Then in February it comes in cold like last winter -20 for a week straight lets say then it warms up and snows. I need to blow the driveway what if the tractor needs 237.7 cca to start? my 200 cca would do me no good right or am I all askew here ?

 I have always bought large cca batteries and always will maybe the one in it now is 300 or more ? I will have to look at some point. But all I really was wondering about was is there a favorite lawn and garden battery that you folks really like? I respect any and all advice and the time taken to write it all out. I am a hunter and pecker my self a 2 fingered typist  to be sure! Thanks Jeff

 

[dcrage 621]

18 hours ago, Save Old Iron said:

never leave an "old school" type charger connected to a battery for more than 10 -12 hours.

 

Even when using the "2 amp trickle charge setting" on the 'old time' battery charger??

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

7 hours ago, dcrage said:

 

Even when using the "2 amp trickle charge setting" on the 'old time' battery charger??

 

 

"old timers" are the worst for trickle charging if left connected for days on end - they will dry out electrolyte slowly but surely.

 

the issue is that "trickle charge" is not governed by any industry standards. no regulated max voltage or max current specs - its all loosey goosey with old timer trickle chargers

2 amp trickle charger suggests that if a battery with less than 100% charge is connected to the charger, the physical properties of the transformer and rectifier in the charger will limit the amperage to the battery top around 2 amps.

 

if the trickle charger has a max output voltage of 12.6 to 13 volts, yes, you could leave the charger connected forever without any real battery damage.

if the trickle charger has a maximum voltage out of 14.x to 15 volts, the charger will very slowly break down the electrolyte into oxygen and hydrogen gasses and leave sulfur behind. this will slowly destroy a battery being trickle charged.

 

which one do you have?  find out by measuring the battery dc voltage with the trickle charger in place. any voltage above 13.5ish I would say eats away at the battery. consider a trickle charger to be a low power e-tank - always eating away at something - slowly - but always. This is a significant issue with computer UPS backup batteries we used to investigate for medical equipment power backups.

 

to combat the overcharging trickle charger issue, companies have introduced "float chargers". These chargers have their output voltages capped to just slightly over the voltage of a fully charged battery.

float chargers are not technically "chargers" as they produce very little current - usually less than 1 amp

their purpose is to "maintain" the same voltage as a fully charged battery and if the battery self discharges a few fractions of an amp per day, the float maintainer puts that super small amount of energy back into the battery very slowly - the battery "floats" right at its full charge voltage and no more.

no harm is done to the battery

 

lots of areas to consider in buying a charger

you have to understand

bulk charge

absorption charge

trickle charge

float charge

equalization charging

 

can make your head spin around when you consider everything that has to work in sync when all you want to do is start up a tractor!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2015 by Save Old Iron

[roadapples 6,981]

I think I was happy when I knew nothing. Now I`m really confused.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

yes, the beginning to understanding always starts at confusion, hang in there.

 

imagine what the inside of my head looks like when we had to know all this stuff just to sit down and keep the manufacturer's reps from BS'ing you into buying millions of dollars worth of possible junk

 

and then we have a meeting with the connector rep and the wire rep later this afternoon and it all starts again

 

mehhhhhhhhhh!!!!

 

 

Edited December 1, 2015 by Save Old Iron

[tunahead72 2,340]

9 hours ago, Save Old Iron said:

 

can make your head spin around when you consider everything that has to work in sync when all you want to do is start up a tractor!

 

 

Oh good, I thought that was just me.

[diamondred 63]

Wally world batteries work fine for me, all winter long. $20 Done.

 

[wrightorchid 261]

Since this has been discussed at length, on various threads, would it be possible to have document that covers battery selection, and maintenance AND pinned to the top of the electrical section?  I always learn something from SOI.  

[tunahead72 2,340]

I think that's an excellent idea, and no I'm not volunteering, but I would certainly appreciate somebody else doing it.

 

It could also be added to the reference section (it's not totally clear to me which topics go there, and which ones get pinned to the top of a "regular" section).

 

[DougC 2,641]

      

 

        If your battery is five years old and you expect it to start your car, truck, tractor what have you, stored in an unheated garage, shed, barn, what have you, in the winter time when the temps. are less than desirable   . The snow shovel is behind the garbage can in the garage............

[jeff lary 171]

Doug and Diamondred

You both are correct and Red, that comment made me laugh. I know a $20-$30 dollar battery has started the horse for 4-5 years winter and summer how the heck can you beat that really ??

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

On 11/30/2015, 7:18:34, dcrage said:

 

Even when using the "2 amp trickle charge setting" on the 'old time' battery charger??

 

I have used an "old time" trickle charger as a temporary, make-shift float charger by powering the trickle charger off a 24 hour indoor timer. I set the timer for the least amount of ON time possible - usually 15 minutes - per day. 

This setup will definitely keep the battery from overcharging and keep it topped off.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Save Old Iron

[jeff lary 171]

That is a good idea I have a " Battery Tender " brand charger as well and I have for the last week or so kept it hooked to my UTV battery . It is really hard to tell because the weather has been so unseasonably warm up here 50* today !. But I have used it several times and so far it starts up great.

Edited December 7, 2015 by jeff lary
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