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futureian

C125- Won't start

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hey i wasnt calling anyone a moron, i said morones! sorry i guess that is more a local thing here. not asking anyone to bow down i didnt say i was OZ either, but lord alot of extra drawn out stuff here, lord i could see my engine being fixed by soem of the guys here that give advise. they would spend hours figuring out i have a slow fuel line then shooting some starting fluid in her to get er running wow. be mad all you want, but i believe in simpler

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OK, I was going to stay out of this but enough is enough. :hide:

Bamboo, maybe some of the suggestions here are complicated but they are educational. Not everyone here has spent a career fixing small engines, me for one. I admit I'm no mechanic - far from it. But reading these posts and the steps the guys suggest to fix some of the problems has taught me more in a year of membership here than forty years of tinkering in my garage and reading books and manuals. I'm darned grateful these guys take the time to spell things out, even if the steps may seem more complex than necessary. :hide:

I respect your apparent knowledge when it comes to small engines. I just don't think it's necessary - or appropriate - to blast the guys here who are trying to walk another member through a problem. Sometimes the long road is the most instructive.........

Thanks for listening.......

Duff :D

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duff, thank you for your input however i wasnt trying to insult anyone although i may have, my point was any true mechanic knows that you dont suggest startingfluid, especially in this case when someone doesnt know how to " correctly" use it! starting fluid can damage any small engine especially these older ones. suggesting to a rookie to use it is detrimental to say the last. quality input is priceless in my opinion. do you know how many repair orders i get just because someone kept using starting fluid? ALOT! same with using SEA FOAM that will not fix a siple problem, moreover the sea foam actually costs more then actually fixing the cause properly :omg:

im sorry its rude, but when making suggestions or trying to help someone, the person should know what they are saying. as you and i boht know replacing an engine is alot of money. both of thjose suggestions are idiotic and rediculous

again im sorry if i offended anyone, its just backyard mechanics and correct mechanics are two differnt things and someone with little to no mechanical understanding should not be getting half assed suggestions from people. maybe you have learned alot, but i believe if your going to teach someone hojw to fix something it should be the correct way

i can assure you if this came in to a repair shop not one mechanic would be throwing SEA FOAM in the carb or gas!!!!!!! :hide::D :hide:

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I'm an ASE Master Technician, is that good enough for ya?

And as a bonus, I can even spell and use proper puncuation. It's all about the details....

I wasn't planning to post on this thread anymore, but I just had to.

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yea thats good enough for me, i would hope with those qualifications you wouldnt suggest to people that they use such remedies when fixing an engine. are you saying that you would? and if spelling is such a NO- no on this site i guess 80% will have to stop posting. guess ill need my spell check for now on. :hide:

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Eldon

"ya" is not a word.

no sentence should start with the wrod "AND"

ending a sentence with ....is not good punctuation

:hide:

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hey guys you know what? i honestly figured we were here to help each other and give the best advise possible... this really is a screw up on my part.

how about this to the man who started the question, its my bad! just throw a bottle of sea foam in your engine, and when you cant start it, keep spraying starting fluid down the carb until its all ok. screw the fuel line, scew the filters. sea foam and starting fluid will fix it all, hell spray your starter with it too....

when it seizes call eldon hell fix it because he is a master

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OK, I was going to stay out of this but enough is enough. :hide:

Bamboo, maybe some of the suggestions here are complicated but they are educational. Not everyone here has spent a career fixing small engines, me for one. I admit I'm no mechanic - far from it. But reading these posts and the steps the guys suggest to fix some of the problems has taught me more in a year of membership here than forty years of tinkering in my garage and reading books and manuals. I'm darned grateful these guys take the time to spell things out, even if the steps may seem more complex than necessary. :hide:

I respect your apparent knowledge when it comes to small engines. I just don't think it's necessary - or appropriate - to blast the guys here who are trying to walk another member through a problem. Sometimes the long road is the most instructive.........

Thanks for listening.......

Duff :D

well said Duff :omg:

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well said Duff :omg:

Im afraid that Duff's message for the most part, fell on deaf ears.

Id be ashamed to be posting anything close to what you have bamboo ... and yes I use Ya and ... and ... too,

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:omg: ...Someone will be along shortly to hand out the :hide:

Thanks for the Saturday night entertainment. :hide: :D

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OK - I am not a certified mechanic or a backyard mechanic. Just a tinkerer. So why is starting fluid bad? I have used it a couple times. To me if you can get the engine to kick over with it you have quickly confirmed a few things. For example, my father in law's JD sat in the garage for a few years full of gas. I drained the gas, filled it with new, got a new battery - and it would not start. A little starting fluid and she ran for a few seconds. There was fuel coming through the fuel line to the carb, so I took it off, cleaned it and now she runs good as new. So did I do long term damage to the engine. Its OK if I did - its not a horse.

And what is Sea foam?

Greg

And please everyone remember to be polite. I really enjoy it here and have learned a lot from everyone and I get uncomfortable reading some of these posts. :hide:

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So why is starting fluid bad?

Now THAT would've been helpful, I do believe...

It is much more flammable than atomized gasoline, so the ignition of it causes a stronger "explosion" in the cylinder. If there was a "never" time I would suggest it's use, it would be on an engine that ran for a bit and then dies. If the engine is already hot, it could ignite before it is supposed to. That's not a good thing...

It's not what you would want to use every time, but if a single use once in a while on a cold engine does cause damage, you've got more wrong than a crusty carb.

I've used it with no problems. My FIL uses silicone spray, because it has close to the same volatility as ether, but is a bit more stable.

And I agree Duff. Very well written. :hide:

Kevin

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Well, here's what I would do...

Put in a new battery and clean the cables well.

Pull the fuel tank a clean it out thoroughly. Also, clean out the shutoff valve.

Replace all fuel hose with new.

Replace the fuel filter.

Pull the float bowl and needle valves (adjustment screws) and clean the carburetor and bowl with carb cleaner..... Use the carb cleaner to blow out all the orfices and put it back together.

Screw in a new spark plug while you're at it.

A lot of this is (to me) preventive maintenance, so it seems like a good time to do it.

On a side note, I use carburetor cleaner as a "starting fluid"... It seems to be less volatile than actual starting fluid............

AND, bambooheels, no need to be rude........... :hide:

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wow, you guys are engine heads? never never never use starting fluid in a small engine period...... and sea foam is a joke... good lord! just empty the tank clean the screen or replace, replace fuel line just becasue you should and put a new filter on there. total time 20 minutes total costs #10.00 or under. never seen so much complication from guys taht are suppossed to know there machines. simple engines, simple answers. and please dont get all hostile replying everyone!!! common sense and knowledge tells you to never use starting fluid, and sea foam will not rid this man of the problem at hand. always fix the problem dont just throw a bandade on it

Why empty the tank and waist time there when it should be obvious from the symptoms that the battery's charge was too low to turn the engine fast enough to get vaporized fuel into the combustion chamber? Or perhaps in the vast experience you've gathered you've not yet seen or heard a starter motor drive retract because of a lack of sufficient current. Judging from a later post a charged battery enabled this engine to start. Now we need to focus on why this battery is not being recharged. I'm not a certified mechanic, but the past 40 plus years I've spent tinkering on virtually every type engine from Cox model airplane engines to Caterpillar dozers makes me think cleaning out the fuel tank won't help much.

As for starting fluid, I don't like it either. But it does have it's place. The guys that cared for our city vehicles always used WD-40 when they HAD to get something going as quickly as possible. They ARE certified on virtually everthing from model plane engines to dozers. Not only does it work as quickly as ether, it is much more stable and has some lubricating properties.

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Jim, Eldon, Duff, Mike. and every one else.

I am very sorry if my words came out wrong, if i said too much in a wrong way. obvious Eldon and Jim, you both know alot and i see that. i was not trying to hurt anyone. i wasnt trying to claim myself as a know it all either. i have been doing this for years as well and i can always respect good advise. especially from people who have either more experience, knowledge ect...

My suggestion wasnt just as a fix here Jim, my thought are when something this old, you need new filters, i dont like to wait until a filter has failed, i prefer replacing thm periodically. and fuel line is just something thats easy and simple to do along the way. as you see i did not argue your first reply, because you were right on in my book. its just telling a person who has little experience to use sea foam and starting fluid is just odd to me. the suggestion wasnt use alittle starting fluid onm a cold engine. im sorry i am old school, starting fluid and chemicals to the engine are not something i believe is appropiate for a single cylinder air cooled engine. aside from oil and fuel i see no reason to get a guy using these things. your advise was great.

again i am sorry to offend anyone here. i just prefer we try to teach rookies the right way from the start, not the quick fix;s that never fix anything.

but anyway its sunday i hope everyone can accept my apoligy...spelling! and ill refrain from my 2cents in the future...unless i have a way to sugar coat it for ya! :hide:

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I always thought ether starting aids were mainly for use when starting diesel engines in the winter, even then only when you really had to use it . I have heard people saying if you start using it then the engine will get addicted to it and you will have to always use it to start the engine. Never believed it myself. You can get quite a lot of preignition knocking noises when its used and can't be doing any good.It's less dangerous than lighting an oily rag and holding it over the air intake to warm things up a bit.

Starting aids should rearly only be used on petrol engines in emergency situations only and then only sparingly.Petrol engines don't need it if the engine is mechanicaly and electricaly good.

Bendix gear starters i think which were fitted to cars up to about the 1960s used this type of starter. The starter spins and throws the gear into engagement using a spiral spline and starts the engine. They used to cause problems ,they would get stuck and you would have to hit them with a hammer,the gear would stick on the splines and the starter would just spin, the teeth would wear out, if the battery gets very low it just spins but not fast enough to throw the gear. All starters now are pre engaged which means the gear is engaged with the engine before it starts to turn.

To the main subject you can check if the battery is charging by putting a volt meter across the battery terminals and check the voltage when the engine is running .The optimum voltage so i was told is 13.8 volts. The running voltage should be more that the engine stopped voltage.

thats my two pennith hope i have got it right

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You can pry my can of Starting Fluid from my cold dead hands.... Buy a can that says it includes lubricant and use it sparingly to wake up a motor that has a sluggish fuel pump or just needs a "pick me up" to get going the first time and you won't have any trouble. The suggestion to spray starting fluid into this guys motor is exactly what I would have done to see if it caught and ran. I have had fuel pumps that wouldn't pump enough at cranking speed to get the motor going, one spray of starting fluid and the higher RPM of the engine running and the pump starts working again. There isn't any way I'm spending $60 at a shot to change out fuel pumps that just need a kick in the pants now and then.

Tony

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words of wisdom tony.

god forbid you just fix the problem! theres always the right way to do things and then there the wrong, sorry my friend using starting fluid is the wrong. obviously you do not repect that engine of yours. and that 60 which is really high to swap out a fuel pump, cant you throw one on yourself? is alot less then a new engine.. :imstupid:

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:hide: I have been a Certified Master Mechanic, I have Built engines for the Avanti sports cars (including racing versions) and in general worked on various types of engines for 50 years. I use starting fluid & Sea Foam. A novice on this forum should not be made afraid to try things on his own-That's how you learn. Members giving suggestions can be considered "BrainStorming" which can be the "FUN" of this whole Forum, trying to figure out things, and helping others learn how to fix their own equipment.-AL :D

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Al,

Well said.

This forum, and especially this section, is about helping others, giving and finding answers, getting advice, direction and guidance. I'm not a mechanic, and I have no qualms nor regrets about that - I rely on advice I get here and other places, other friends and family who are more mechanical inclined than I, and I can read and understand technical jargon as good as any. So, we need forms like this and the other members here also, to guide novice, as well as the experienced mechanic, along to find solutions to our problems.

Now, the uses of starting fluid, sea foam, or any other aid to use on these engines, isn't my concern here. It's the free ideas, the friendly banter when there's a debate or disagreement, and the knowledge we can obtain if we really read the posts.

Disagreements should be made with a friendly attitude. If we disagree with others, we should be MAN enough to do it with consideration and thoughtfulness, without malice. Name calling, superior attitudes, or know it all attitudes, has no place here. We all can benefit here if we use the proper forum etiquette and if we are willing to listen to the advice of others. If we don't agree, voice your opinion in a friendly, non-confrontational way. Maybe you're right, but maybe you're wrong. But, play nice.

I would like this thread to stay open so the original poster can get his problem solved, but if there are more personal attacks and name calling, then this thread might have to be closed. For the most part, I think most members have acted judiciously and without malice. Let's keep it nice, okay.

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Watch out who your calling stupid..... your managing to piss off several people with your rant against starting fluid. As far as the $60... yes I can swap out my own pump and am pretty handy with a set of tools--although not a MASTER MECHANIC :hide: I was reffering to the cost of a new genuine Kohler pump at my dealer.

Tony (not a MASTER MECHANIC--and yet to wreck a motor or do ANY damage with Starting Fluid--except to bee hives!!!!)

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AMEN T-MO!! Thanks for a voice of reason on this thread. Opinions are opinions and we all should keep them that way! NO personal attacks, no calling people morons, no calling people stupid. If you don't agree, fine! But this has been dragged out to an extreme that has become uncomfortable to all and our new member may be scared off by all the banter that has gone on. Ian, this is not how this forum operates on a regular basis. Please look through other posting and realize that this is the best place to be future advice, tips and tricks on these red tractors we all love. This is generally a jovial place to hang out and just talk horse and have a good time.

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Ian,

lets get back to your problem. It is Sunday and you may have already got it working, but lets go through the problems and avoid the arguing (playful banter)

First, what engine do you have?

By the picture it looks like a K301 from the muffler, but I could be wrong as I often am.

In this case here is link to the manual:

http://www.kohlerengines.com/common/resources/tp_2379.pdf

It does have a bendix starter.

If I am wrong just keep reading and ignore the irrelevant stuff.

The problem seems to be intermittent starting. Does it ever quit running in the middle of working or only when you turn in off and try to restart it?

I would think if it was a fuel delivery problem it would also happen while you were running it, but I could be wrong so I agree with everyone else - change the lines and clean the tank. This is supposed to be quick and easy, but it never is for me, but you should be able to and have the bonus of smelling like gas when you get done.

Next, and this is just from my personal experience, carbs cause lots of fuel delivery problems, so I would take it off and clean it. If you want, and please lets not start the whole starter fluid discussion again you can try some (on a cold engine) This will bypass the carb. It will only run for a few seconds but quickly narrows the problem. This really isn't hard, I've done it a couple times this year to various things and you don't smell as much like gas when you finish.

The fuel pump from your description seems to be working fine.

This should take care of any fuel problems.

Now to the electric. Get a voltmeter. Great things. And ask the guys what to do next. They will go through it step by step with you. Ask as many questions as necessary till you are comfortable.

In my humble opinion it sounds like you actually have 2 issues - one fuel delivery and one electric. The engine and charging system if working correctly should be able to keep the battery charged with the headlights going.

The most important thing is to keep the guys (do we have any female members) informed of your progress, and there is not a problem that can not be solved.

Greg

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It sounds like the fuel pump is pumping. So like Sparky suggested. The problem might be in between. Why not try to soak the carb in cleaner overnight?

And you know my favorite? Put some seafoam through the tank. Don't forget the seafoam might throw crud on your spark plug. You will likely want to change that plug after the foam.

:hide:

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just for the record, i apoligized earlier on about any wrong doing i might have had in this thread.

my main point still is, master mechanic, backyard mechanic, so on and so forth.

sea fam and starting fluid have a small place in working with these engines. the use of them meens there is a problem, neither fix any problems,

im done. if in ya are a master mechanoic and you do use these items, i would like to see your qualifications. :hide::D:hide::omg: :omg:

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