Repowering a D

[tommyg 152]

Has anyone attempted to repower a d-series with anything other than the original engine? I've got a bum engine with a broken connecting rod. Not sure what it's gonna cost me to have it rebuilt (if I can even find some parts) but I'm wondering if something like a Kohler Command Pro might be an option. I'm not ready to give up on this tractor. 

["D"- Man 827]

I saw a D-200 repowered with a Honda 24HP; however, the gentleman moved and I do not know his new address.  One thing to keep in mind is the max RPM's as the hydro was only designed for that of the original engines.

[baerpath 517]

I know one that has a Lombridini diesel twin on it.  My son has a running 23hp K for sale. He's getting married so most of his toy's need to go

[pacer 3,159]

Having just finished a 'minor' rebuild on my D-200 K-532 (re-ringing it) with the frustration of finding the necessary parts to do it ..... Well, I do believe us D owners are gonna have to start looking at doing a repower for them. The possible drawback on the Predators being 'sideload' on the crank should be alleviated on the D since it only drives the pump. That should only leave alignment of the crank and adapting it to mate with the pump as the major concerns. Fitting under the larger hood would/should be a plus in adding a muffler system.

Then we'll have to come up with something to do with the Sundstrand problem

[bmsgaffer 2,043]

I saw a D-200 repowered with a Honda 24HP; however, the gentleman moved and I do not know his new address.  One thing to keep in mind is the max RPM's as the hydro was only designed for that of the original engines.

Aren't industrial engines , for the most part, all designed around 3600 RPM? (other than some diesels which I know can be a 2400 or so range)

Edited July 20, 2015 by bmsgaffer

[tommyg 152]

I've looked at both the Honda and Kohler. Similar in design and size. The Honda is a bit heavier which surprised me. Honda specifically states that only the PTO side of the shaft is designed to be loaded. I need to find something that permits both sides of the crank to be loaded. One on the PTO and the other driving the pump. I did find a Kohler that seems to be designed this way. In fact, it looks like it was designed to mate with the same coupler on the OEM Kohler. That could be good. However, it's gotta be the most expensive engine they make. Both Honda and Kohler run a a max of 3600 RPM, so that's not a probem.  Here's a link to that Kohler at Northern tool. No idea if the shaft size is correct. http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200631822_200631822

[baerpath 517]

That's high price for the command for only being a 20hp A grand to 1400 is more like it new

[tommyg 152]

Yeah, maybe. I was paying attention to the coupler on the flywheel side. Is it possible to adapt an engine to that wheelhorse coupler if it doesn't already exist? This is the only engine I've seen with that possibility standard. If it's just driving the pump, is that considered a "load". No side tension, I'm thinking I could get away with $1500. What would you guys do? Salvage the K482 with used parts and keep it alive? Probably an $800 job and that's without knowing what I'm gonna find when I open it up. Or bite the bullet and see if I can find something that fits without too much modification that will last for another 40 years. It won't be original. Do I care? I don't know. These newer engines are so much more efficient handling heat and sipping fuel. Maybe it will pay for itself in fuel costs alone. I know the 482 sucked it up. Maybe I'll inspire others to do the same from what I learn. (Or make them change their minds!) Thoughts welcome!

[pfrederi 17,128]

KT 17s and Mag 18s were used by John Deere and they ran stuff off both ends of the crankshaft.  as did I believe Cub Cadets.  I doubt the 2-3 hp loss would be that significant.  I have always wondered what the upper limit was for Sudstrands was on HP input.

[JackC 616]

There appears to be plenty of used engines around.  Used flat head Kohler KT 17s or ONAN Generator or Performer Series 20, 18 and 16 horse engines out of 400 and 500 Series Wheel Horse Tractors should be adaptable.  If you go with an ONAN engine the crankshaft may allow you to use the electric PTO from a D-160.  

[tommyg 152]

I thought this was interesting. I found this on a Craigslist ad in Columbus. This guy had his d200 repowered with a Honda 24hp V twin. So it's possible. However, there's no clutch mechanism set up. All he's able to do is push snow. No PTO to engage. I wonder if that was by choice or otherwise. On another note, the tractor looks to be in great shape! Mark, this might be the same one you saw. He's in Lima, OH.

Edited July 29, 2015 by tommyg

[Don1977 604]

Don't see why an electric clutch couldn't be installed on that Honda.

[tommyg 152]

Good possibility. Do you think an aftermarket clutch could fit? I'm used to the double clutch system surface of the Kohler and need to be able to drive a 60" deck. So it can't slip.

[wheeledhorseman 573]

When I was following Ian's 6x6 wheelhorse project he used an Magnum 20 I think to power it. Remember thinking that it might make a good replacement for a D-200 as it's about the same size. I've had no first hand experience of the M20 but I'm pretty sure it has tapped holes in the flywheel to take a drive flange like the K in the D-200. 

Googling M20 repower led me back to RS and a thread I'd forgotten which discusses various issues - worth reading as it covers pros and cons of repower vs rebuild, you'll find it here http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/topic/40659-kohler-magnum-20-swap-into-a-d-series/

Andy

[pacer 3,159]

" pretty sure it has tapped holes in the flywheel to take a drive flange like the K in the D-200."

This is another of the 'quirks?' of the D series, its motor has to be able to drive off both sides of itself  - not only PTO but from the flywheel also. I stopped and took a peek at the Predator in HF the other day and looking thru the dust screen on the flywheel side didnt look very promising...

[tommyg 152]

Googling M20 repower led me back to RS and a thread I'd forgotten which discusses various issues - worth reading as it covers pros and cons of repower vs rebuild, you'll find it here

Andy

I did read this thread with interest. It was from 2013 which isn't that long ago, but in that short time, the connecting rods are impossible to find oversized. Pistons and rings are still available. I'm not skilled enough to do that work, so I have to have someone else do it.  But I'm likely to pay upwards of $1000 with parts and labor even if I could find them and in the end, I still have a 40 year old engine. A new engine would be around $1300 and parts would be available for years to come. I'm prepared to do some modifications to the existing set up. Still thinking about my options. My local guy looked at the engine and said "This engine is worth saving. Let me do some research". Haven't heard back yet.

[baerpath 517]

Running engine $250 Just taking up space

[pacer 3,159]

Duane
I looked at an engine like that - VERY similar - and turned it down because the crank on the PTO side wasnt like the D's. Is this one same as D's or?

[tommyg 152]

I wonder what the set up is on the front for the hydro pump. The K482 had a crank with a 1 1/8" shaft on the PTO end and the means to drive the hydro pump via an aluminum/rubber coupler.So height requirements were important to make sure everything lined up. I feel like if I have to make modifications to make another used engine fit, I'd rather just bite the bullet and make the modifications to something that has a warranty and the expectations to last another 25 years.  I did hear from my engine guy this afternoon. Looks like an engine change is going to be necessary. He's pulling the engine next week to look specifically at the pump end and see how a new Kohler might hook up. We talked about the electric clutch idea and we both think that's the way to go. Just eliminate the whole PTO lever assembly altogether. I've gotta make sure I maintain the dual pulley arrangement on the front so I can still run the rear pto, snowblower and mower deck. I'll update this thread as things progress with some photos as needed in case anyone is pondering a similar move.

[pacer 3,159]

Maybe I'm reading this PTO business all wrong about electric vs manual. To my thinking the main - side - load applied on the PTO is arrived at from tightening the belt. While there is some force from a manual engage, once engaged that force is pretty much eliminated, while the tensioned belt driving its accessory is a constant and rather heavy side load whether its been engaged manually or electrically... What am I missing here?

FWIW, I have a 18 automatic that has an electric PTO on its K482 engine. No way of knowing if its original or not, I do wonder because it still retains the manual engage handle that isnt connected to anything.

[tommyg 152]

The manual clutch on the d180 Kohler has an arm that's attached to a flange at the bottom of the bearing plate. That's the pivot point.  The arm holds a bearing and plate that slips over the crankshaft. As the PTO lever is engaged, it pushes this assembly forward against the friction plate and pulley assembly which engages the implement. It's kind of crude in comparison to an electric assembly, but it works. The problem with an engine replacement is how to affix this arm in the proper location. and line everything up so it works the same. The right electric clutch mated to that particular engine would eliminate all that manual stuff. I'm guessing that your electric is aftermarket since you have the manual engage handle that doesn't do anything. I believe it was the Onan engine that used an electric clutch assembly as standard equipment.

["D"- Man 827]

I thought this was interesting. I found this on a Craigslist ad in Columbus. This guy had his d200 repowered with a Honda 24hp V twin. So it's possible. However, there's no clutch mechanism set up. All he's able to do is push snow. No PTO to engage. I wonder if that was by choice or otherwise. On another note, the tractor looks to be in great shape! Mark, this might be the same one you saw. He's in Lima, OH.

Yes, Tommy it is I remember it well.

[tommyg 152]

He's actually a member here on Red Square and has a listing in the classifieds. We've messaged back and forth a few times already. That set up was done by the Small Engine Warehouse in Muncie Indiana. It was their first attempt at re-powering a D. They had some parts machined for the connection to the pump and had to raise the engine up to fit. Not sure how they accomplished the muffler, but even though they're not original, they do follow the same pathway out the bottom of the front hood support as originally designed. The only other modification he had to make was to put a spacer to spread out the hood a bit because it hit the engine slightly when closed. But again, no PTO clutch.

[wheeledhorseman 573]

I see what you mean about the con-rods being NLA but I also checked the Kohler site for same for my 20HP engine and one is still available, the other not (can't recall whether it was the standard or 10 thou) It makes me think we're on the cusp regarding spares availability for these twins so I could check with the guy who holds the Kohler spares stock here in the UK if he still has any for your 18HP still on the shelf if you were interested. 

Andy

[tommyg 152]

"I could check with the guy who holds the Kohler spares stock here in the UK if he still has any for your 18HP still on the shelf if you were interested."

Are you saying there might still be stock Kohlers to fit that tractor on the shelf on your side of the pond? If I'm understanding you right, by all means!