310-8 will not start HELP

[elcamino/wheelhorse 9,044]

I am new to this so ,I may screw something up. I have 1987 310-8 10hp model 2110k804, serial 29278. The Blank-blank won't start. I have replaced switch, solenoid,safety switches for PTO. I ordered a new relay but got a relay kit service(part number 99-5365 (of course no instructions). I have tried following wiring diagram from Toro, only a few wires are the same color. Does any one have a diagram for the hook up of the relay kit service. I was looking at some of the topics and some one mentioned that the instrument panel was loose. With the switch being grounded does the panel have to be installed also for the 310 -8 to start.  Does any one have wiring diagram and maybe diagram of circuits ? I can not find a diagram for 1987 310-8 , I think that is part of problem. Yes, the battery is at full charge , have used test light for voltage and multi-meter for breaks in wires. 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,496]

Welcome to the forum.

The wiring diagram should be in this operator manual
http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/241-tractor-1987-300-series-om-wiringpdf/

Service bulletins on the 99-5365 relay kit
http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/751-wh61-90-447-low-oil-relay-on-1989-garden-tractorspdf/
http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/243-wh61-90-451-kill-relay-replacementpdf/

Service bulletin on the low oil switch - very important if removal is required
http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/2062-wh89-90-t17-oil-level-switch-servicepdf/

Let us know if you need more

Garry

Edited July 5, 2015 by gwest_ca

[elcamino/wheelhorse 9,044]

Thanks for the files , Iwill read them this evening and try to check out the stuff in the morning. Being a shade tree mechanic does not help. Do you know if the instrument  panel has to be screwed down before it will start. Since the ignition switch ( this is new also) is grounded I don't think it would make any difference if the  instrument panel was secured or not. The seat switch and clutch switch were missing when I purchased the 310-8 over 5 years ago. Part of my problem is almost all the wires are a different color than listed in the wiring diagrams and manuals that I have looked at. The wiring harness does not have any splices .The harness looks original . The connector for the ignition switch looks a little iffy but I can not find a replacement.

Thanks again

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,496]

Here is a link to a Stens replacement ignition switch connector
https://www.bantasaw.com/catalog/viewproduct.asp?i=&p=3054

With harness
https://www.bantasaw.com/catalog/viewproduct.asp?i=205&p=1326
The wires can be removed and rearranged for better color match but there is a trick to it. Open up a 1/8" x 2" cotter pin and use one side of it to go into the cavity from the front on the back side of the terminal. What you need to do is collapse a tang on the back of the terminal so it can be pulled out of the plastic body.

Napa also has these

Garry
 

Edited July 6, 2015 by gwest_ca

[elcamino/wheelhorse 9,044]

thanks for the info.

[Lagersolut 613]

Thanks for the files , Iwill read them this evening and try to check out the stuff in the morning. Being a shade tree mechanic does not help. Do you know if the instrument  panel has to be screwed down before it will start. Since the ignition switch ( this is new also) is grounded I don't think it would make any difference if the  instrument panel was secured or not.

If it's the same as my 89 310-8,  the tractor will " NOT " start if the instrument panel is not grounded ( screwed down )

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,496]

You posted a serial # 29278. Is there a chance it is 23278?

Garry

[elcamino/wheelhorse 9,044]

no the 29278 is the serial number and it is a 2110k804, has a 10hp Kohler Magnum motor. I still have a problem where nothing on the electrical system matches the drawings. Check out the drawing on the attached PDF colors of wires don't match . One thing I don't understand is why would the red wire going to the 15 amp fuse holder be attached on the solenoid bolt where the starter cable is attached. After installing the solenoid to the tractor is there any thing special that I need to do to make it work. I checked the low oil level switch this AM and it did not have a float. What are the chances that it was removed in the past, or it knocked it off. I was very careful unscrewing the switch and did not feel it grab when I removed it.  I hope you can open the attached file. 

Scan0008.pdf

[pfrederi 17,147]

The 15 amp fuse should be connects to the lug on the solenoid that has the cable coming from the Pos terminal on the battery.  It feeds the electrical system., your ignition switch and then the solenoid to start her up.

[buckrancher 2,675]

what do you mean by it won't start does the motor turn over when you turn the key switch and the motor not fire or nothing happens the motor does not turn over?

Brian

[elcamino/wheelhorse 9,044]

Turn the key and nothing happens. I can get the motor by using jumper cables. From positive side of battery to starter.  New ignition switch , new solenoid , two new contact switches for PTO .

If you are able to read the PDF that I sent you will see that it indicates the red wire from fuse to be hooked to lug that starter cable connects to .
this PDF is from a page in a manual that I purchased from Toro/Wheel Horse in Dec. 2009. I also own a B-82 and a Commando 800. The Commando 800 is a 1972 purchased by my father. When he died in 1991 I got the unit. I used it unit 2009 . It needs to be rebuilt. New motor , New Seat , tie rods, No mower deck. Free to who ever picks it up. By the way my old man was cheap, homemade wheel weighs out of Lead.

[pfrederi 17,147]

I do not see color on the PDF but logic tells me if you have the 15 mp fuse connected to the Starter motor side of the solenoid you will NOT be getting any juice tot eh ignition switch.  Hence no juice to trigger teh solenoid and energize the starter.

Back probe the B terminal of teh ignition switch do you have 12 volts??...I doubt it.

[elcamino/wheelhorse 9,044]

I switched the 15 amp fuse to the positive cable lug on the solenoid and still nothing. When I did the switch on the 15 amp fuse , I was getting power to the B terminal. I have been working on the 310-8 for two weeks before I became a member,of the forum. It is driving me crazy. 

[pfrederi 17,147]

Turn the ignition switch to run.  Use a jumper wire from the Pos terminal battery to the small terminal on the solenoid.  She should crank and fire up.  If she cranks and doesn't fire up then we will have  to look at the various safety switches

[elcamino/wheelhorse 9,044]

Thanks for the hint, will try in the morning. Our daily  thunderstorm is starting up and this shade tree mechanic staying inside and turning off the computer for now.

[buckrancher 2,675]

as far as I know there should only be 3 things besides the key switch also the starting circuit should be on a 25 amp fuse and yes the 15amp fuse should be on the battery side of the solenoid switch
clutch pedal switch
pto switchs
low oil sending switch unplug 64 on wiring diagram to remove from use

Brian

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,496]

Here is the 1987 310-8 diagram from the operator manual

Garry

[elcamino/wheelhorse 9,044]

Clutch switch long gone , oil switch not hooked up ( I unhooked so I could remove and check to see if it was working) of course the float part of switch was missing , so I have to remove oil pan.  PTO switches may disappear also. After I switched fuse wire to positive lug on solenoid this morning , I got power to both 5 amp and 15 amp fuses and I got power to battery terminal on ignition switch ( all of this was done this morning). I even tried attaching the instrument panel back to tractor. Crossed my fingers turned the key and got zip. I have a copy of the wiring diagram , but somewhere my 310-8 got different color wires. The manual I got from Toro/Wheel Horse  also had diagrams for circuit off, starting , run with PTO engaged and charging ( all 4 diagrams on one sheet of paper) , but I can not read or follow the circuits since they must have used a fat lead pencil ( like when you are in the first grade ) or a carpenter's pencil .

[pfrederi 17,147]

I like older stuff with out all this safety stuff....Carelessness and stupidty cleaned out the gene pool back then.  The safeties do 2 things.  one type keeps the engine from cranking the others will kill the spark.  The PTO switch will preclude cranking as will the clutch switch and the oil level.  The PTO switch and seat switch together can kill the spark. Look at the diagram.  The mag wire is really a kill, it grounds out the ignition. That only happens through the ignition switch or the PTO /seat switch. Grounding happens if PTO is engaged and then the seat switch closes (you off seat).  Ground is Dark Blue to PTO Orange to seat and then black to ground.  You say if you jump it it will run...indicates this is not your problem.  Your issue is something is precluding it from cranking. Try jumping the small solenoid terminal to the battery positive with the switch in run(eg mag not grounded)  she should start and run.  If so the issue is the PTO switch, clutch or oil level. From your description I would unplug PTO switch an see if she will crank jumping the solenoid. If so jump the tan and purple wires in the PTO switch socket. That should let her crank from the igniiton switch.

[elcamino/wheelhorse 9,044]

I agree gene pool lost something years ago. I am such an old goat at age 68 that I only wear wind up watch. Elgin  and Waltham from the 50's Hamilton from the 30's and a Timex from early 60's. Heck I drive a 1984 El Camino . Will try your suggestions. I think one of the switches died when I was cutting grass.  Stopped tractor to shoot the breeze with neighbor. Got back Tractor and it would not start. Neighbor and I pushed heavy ______ up hill and finally got it under shade tree in back yard where it has sat and I have cussed too much in the last few weeks. No seat switch either.

[buckrancher 2,675]

have you checked the switch you changed to be sure its the correct one for the kohler M engine as the switches are different between an M & K kohler

Brian

[elcamino/wheelhorse 9,044]

The switch is an exact match for the old switch, boy I will be mad if that is the problem. 
To Gary I made an error in the serial number , it is 23278. Not sure how I messed that up.
Reply to pfrederi :  I traced wires this morning had an I idea.  If I remove switches that are used(PTO) , remove extra wires that go no where for (seat , clutch switches) leave oil level switch unhooked , the tan wire goes to the contact on top of solenoid. Test light is only for oil level switch. The float part of oil level switch is missing. I have to remove  oil pan and check for the float . Sure hope it not in the engine. Please see attached PDF . Let me know if brain is working or my head is just a hat rack.

Scan0009.pdf

[pfrederi 17,147]

Your digram should work.  Tan wire directly from switch to solenoid. 

[buckrancher 2,675]

before you hack the wiring up more does the starter solenoid work and the motor turn over if you take a jumper wire from the positive battery terminal to the 1/4" spade terminal on the starter solenoid?


Brian

[elcamino/wheelhorse 9,044]

After taking 10lbs of tape off all the wiring, it was already hacked up. That has been problem. pfrederi suggested jumper last night. I was going to try jumper first . If that doesn't work , I am going to put the old switch back in and turn the key.
Thanks for all of you all's help.  Had to do honey do chores and cut grass with B 82 today so shade tree work had to be put off.