Bearing info needed

[wheeledhorseman 573]

I have a scrap Sundstrand transmission (keyways in both axle shafts destroyed) which I was going to keep on the shelf as a source of future spares but an RS member here in the UK needs the casing for a resto project which I've said he can have.

I'll still be keeping the internals (diff, gears etc) and of course the NLA 1533 bearings but are there any other bearings I should take out as well because they're becoming hard to get?

Thanks in anticipation.

[stevasaurus 22,229]

That would be about all I would keep...the rest of the bearings are really no problem to find and are not expensive.   
 

[pfrederi 17,128]

When I redid the transaxle on my D there was one needle bearing that I couldn't find a replacement for and had to reuse.  Now i will sit and think to try and remember which one it was....I think it was one that was in the trans case where the hydro motor attaches.

I think (it was #8049) 4-18 in the diagram  The WH # was changed to 5960 and it is NLA.  I remember a lady at motion industries did some searching for me and couldn't find a replacement.  it is a short bearing and there is no room for a longer one.
 

[stevasaurus 22,229]

Paul...do you remember the ID and the height of that bearing??    Maybe Andy can measure it??

Edited May 30, 2015 by stevasaurus

[wheeledhorseman 573]

Sorry to disappoint but it's a Sundstrand transmission from a C-121 but that's a really useful piece of info Paul as the C-121 transmission has one of these bearings so if it's in good order I'll add it to the 1533 bearings on the remove and keep list.

AS you say, the #8049 bearing became #5960 which is NLA and as far as I can tell the 5960 was a Torrington M-1681 which Torrington have discontinued. I'll be able to check that number tomorrow on the C-121 transmission.

I don't feel so dumb about posting the original question now

Andy

[stevasaurus 22,229]

An M-1681 would measure 1" ID and 1/2" height. 

[pfrederi 17,128]

The M1681 no longer shows up on my bearing suppliers site.  However it appear there is a Koyo substitute.  IR-128

 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,478]

The M1681 no longer shows up on my bearing suppliers site.  However it appear there is a Koyo substitute.  IR-128

 

​I think it should be for a 1" shaft. Do they have a IR-168?
M1681 would be an open bearing.

Garry

Edited May 31, 2015 by gwest_ca

[pfrederi 17,128]

It has been a long time since i actually saw the bearing in question but i think it was on a 3/4" shaft.

From Motion industries they now think the Koyo  IR-128 is a substitute for the M1681...strange the lady didn't seem to find that a few years ago when i inquired>>>>
 

[stevasaurus 22,229]

Like Garry stated...M-1681 would have a 1" ID x 1 1/4" OD x 1/2" height...it is also what I call a "cap" bearing.  ie, it is closed on one side.  If Andy has an open case there, maybe he can measure this rascal. 

[wheeledhorseman 573]

Had a look at the bearing in question today hoping to see a manufacturer's reference on the end cap but both roller bearings that are visible with the hydro motor removed had no markings at all. At a guess the original WH 8049 bearing was produced for WH / Sundstrand without any manufacturer's markings.

I'm basing the fact that the WH 5960 bearing used as a later replacement was actually a Torrington M1681 from a photo of a NOS 5960 listed for sale which shows the Torrington reference markings on it but as you say measurements are really needed to confirm this.



The M-1681 is certainly from the photo a cap bearing. I'll be splitting the transmission case during the week so I'll be able to remove the bearing for measurement and will keep you posted.

The Koyo IR128 is I think an open ended bearing so not a suitable replacement despite what they say. There is a Koyo M-12121 thats a cap bearing and the same ID / OD size as the IR128 but it's 3/4" wide not 1/2". So in answer to the age old question - size does matter!

[Factory Dog 44]

I am a little confused with all the numbers flying around, but I know that the 8049 is a Torrington M16101, 1" x 1-1/4" x 5/8", drawn cup needle roller bearing, closed, full complement, and as stated earlier NLA.  It was the only bearing that was unavailable for the D transaxle. 

[wheeledhorseman 573]

I never expected this thread would evolve in the way it has and in a way I got the answer I was looking for from Paul in terms of the NLA status of one of the cap bearings for a Sundstrand so decided I'd better remove it from the casing along with the famous (or should I say infamous) 1533 bearings to keep as spares.

The 'holy grail' challenge to find a replacement for the 1533 bearings never ceases to inspire guys to try and there is an element of this here in that sometime the chances are that Sundstrand owners are going to need a suitable replacement for the needle bearing in question..

Summing up all that's been said so far and filling in some gaps it would appear that..
The original WH #8049 bearing was a Torrington M-16101 or equivalent being 5/8" deep (or width I believe they call it)
This was fine and dandy until the bearing became obsolete from the manufacturers standard range.

Rather than having a batch custom made ToroWH substituted a bearing designated WH #5960 which was a Torrington M-1681. The bearing had the same ID and OD but was 1/2" width instead of 5/8". (I have now found other references including on this forum to the 5960 being a Torrington M-1681). One must assume that engineers decided that despite the smaller area of contact with the shaft, the bearing was capable of withstanding the loads put on it by the transmission.

Again all was fine and dandy until this bearing was also discontinued so the search for a replacement becomes of considerable interest to D owners and also C Auto owners with the future in mind. A possible answer can be found in this thread http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/topic/34389-thinking-of-giving-up-rebuilding-my-two-wheelhorse-tractors/?page=1 where a BCE168 bearing by INA is suggested if you read far enough down the thread. It means putting up with a 1/2" width rather than 5/8".

So to my next and hopefully final question - having split the old case and seen the infamous 1533 bearings for the first time, what's the best type of puller to get them out without damage?

[stevasaurus 22,229]

1st...if you are going to try to save that needle bearing, use a good arbor,or socket that fits good and tap the bearing through from the outside toward the inside...less chance of ruining the bearing.

2nd...there is now a couple of threads on doing a little machining (either on the differential carriage or on the case half) to make it so another bearing other then the #1533 will work.

3rd...I think you are correct in thinking that the 5/8" thick bearing is NLA, and people have been going to the 1/2" thick bearing...just tap the new bearing in 1/8" past flush.

Good thread and a great discussion. 

[sorekiwi 761]

To get the 1533 bearings out of the case halves, I use a slide hammer with a small 2 legged puller attached to the bottom.  I have in the past used a long drift from the end of the axle tube to knock them out.

Both of these methods are not ideal - in both cases you are impacting on the inner race while the outer race is being held in the case.  This can cause a small impact mark on one of the races or the balls themselves.  But in this case you dont have much option.  I've never hurt a bearing doing this, but it is possible that you can.  The slide hammer is the safest method in my opinion.

[stevasaurus 22,229]

I totally agree with sorekiwi on what he said above.  The same problem with the inner race, but I have had good luck with a pneumatic hammer with a bent chisel...pops it right out...about 3 rat-a-tats. 

[pfrederi 17,128]

for the 1533 I use a long brass drift pin through the axle tube and tap them out

Edited June 2, 2015 by pfrederi