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rmaynard

1996 416-H - Eaton 1100-062 Motion Control Problems

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rmaynard

Now that I am the owner of a 416-H, I am starting to work on some of the problems that came along with it. Other than some fluid leaks, the biggest problem is motion control. This tractor has the control lever on the steering column. Here's my problems.

 

When I push the lever forward, the tractor moves forward, but slowly. If I push the lever as far forward as it will go and hold it, it will increase in speed. The action of the lever is not smooth. In other words, it's not a smooth increase in speed as the lever is pushed forward. Having never had any experience with an Eaton, I assume that the speed should increase gradually as the motion control lever is pushed forward, and slow down gradually as the lever is returned to neutral.

 

The same problem occurs in reverse. However, I have to pull the lever hard in reverse in order to make the tractor move any faster than a snail. But when I push the motion control lever forward to the neutral position, there is no neutral area. The tractor misses neutral and goes directly into forward, causing the tractor to jump and jerk forward.

 

I have tightened everything up in the speed cam area, but that did not help much. So here is what my instincts tell me.

 

This is a picture of my existing cam,

 

post-2221-0-73652500-1418304741_thumb.jp

 

and this is a new cam that I purchased,

 

post-2221-0-34025100-1418306731_thumb.jp

 

Could part of the problem be that the slot where the cam follower rides is worn? Note the tip between forward and reverse is worn down.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

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psalms83:18

i dont know much, but from personal experience, and from my own readings of manuals and ripping apart my eaton 1100 (still in process). But usually that lever arm that is pressed onto the hydro itself, moves with very little effort, so a guess of mine and a suggestion from the trouble shooting on the manual would be to reajust the control arm linkage, something might be to tight? The middle bolt their has two friction washers under it that doesnt require much tightening and they become difficult.

Have you been able to watch the linkage and lever arm move while you put it through forward neutral and reverse??

Edited by psalms83:18

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bmsgaffer

Make sure that everything under the tunnel cover is still good and lubricated.

 

The 520 i purchased had a similar problem because it had been sitting a while. Make sure to lubricate all the moving parts (linkage joints) except the friction washers.

 

Two big things to check: the rocker arm in the tunnel should be free and not wobble (may need bushings) and make sure your brake pedal is returning back far enough (pull back on it and try it over again). Mine had a missing brake return spring and caused be to have to push real hard to get her to move. A weak return spring may have the same problem.

 

This may be a "duh" thing to you, but it happened to me: there is a detent that is supposed to stop you from throwing it in reverse, you have to push the motion lever down before moving it into reverse. Its like their neutral safety mechanism. It took me several days of trying before i figured that one out. :eusa-doh:

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rmaynard

Thanks Brandon. When I get the chance, I will check out all the linkage. With 1598 hours I would imagine that there is some wear and slop in the linkage.

First thing will be to fix the leaks, drain the transmission, put in a new filter and fill with fully synthetic oil.

All responses and suggestions are appreciated. I know there are many members who have infinitely more experience on this subject than me.

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rmaynard

i dont know much, but from personal experience, and from my own readings of manuals and ripping apart my eaton 1100 (still in process). But usually that lever arm that is pressed onto the hydro itself, moves with very little effort, so a guess of mine and a suggestion from the trouble shooting on the manual would be to reajust the control arm linkage, something might be to tight? The middle bolt their has two friction washers under it that doesnt require much tightening and they become difficult.

Have you been able to watch the linkage and lever arm move while you put it through forward neutral and reverse??

 

I think that the problem may be slop in the linkage from the motion control lever to the cam control assemble, and the linkage from there to the cam speed control. The speed control arm on the transmission moves smoothly, and the friction and spring washers are not too tight. 

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Martin

Bushings, pivots and all wear areas are usually the cause of problems. The cam plate slot wear is a factor too Bob, but the piece that slides through that slot wears as well. Look for flat spots on that piece as it should be round. I had a tractor recently that I couldn't smooth out and it ended up being the stud that the plate you have pictured pivots on. This stud is pressed into a bracket that is bolted to the pump. It had lost its pressed in fit in the bracket and was allowing the plate to rock , not pivot smoothly and bind at the friction washer point. (Keep those friction washers oil and grease free, no lube at all here)

Look at each area from the lever all the way back, there is many areas where a small amount of wear all add up.

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312Hydro

I placed a nylon washer between the friction washer and the plate when I rebuilt the 312H. Works well. The reverse safety will wear in time. I can go from forward to reverse with just a little down pressure.

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dennist

I had one that was having similar issues, tightened all center tunnel linkages and adjusted back and forth still not right, so I spent money on new cam and all that stuff, still not right. I then took off the dash tunnel cover along with seat pan and center tunnel cover, jacked up and started by taking cam off...Started the tractor and made sure it worked smooth and accurate right at pump first.

Once that was fine I started to adjust for neutral without linkages "hooked" up, once it was fine I started hooking up linkages and this is where it was problematic for me, the linkages were fine, but up under the dash tunnel watching how it all should work, I found a bolt that held the dash in place was put on backwards and interfering with the motion lever.

PO had just been jamming it back and forth instead of finding the main problem. That one bolt was the whole issue that probably angered a few guys to say that those 520's(what this one was)are junk, when it was doing all it could due to that bolt being backwards. It had full smooth motion after that forward neutral and reverse. It really does have to be checked from the column to the pump and all points in between IMO.

Good Luck

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rmaynard

Thanks to all for the info. I will report back what I find (hopefully with pictures). If anyone has a non-worn cam (106661) they would like to sell, let me know.

 

post-2221-0-27987900-1418315102.png

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rexman72

theres a rod that connects the lever with the cam and when the same thing was happening to mine i checked everything and found the the brackets needed to be screwed in a little more to shorten up the rod so when i moved the lever forward,the cam moved forward even more.

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rmaynard

I took the hood off today since the front pivot mount had a lot of wear, and I noticed when looking at the tractor straight on from standing in front of it, the engine appeared to be listing badly to one side. Not only was the engine listing, but the front of the frame was as well, and then I noticed that the steering wheel and dash also appeared out of kilter.

 

So I crawled under to take a look at the transmission mounting plate, and much to my surprise, the top two 3/8" bolts were completely missing. To make matters worse, the bottom two were missing as well, but had been replaced for some reason with 1/4" x 2" bolts with washers and nuts, and they were loose. This was allowing the frame and transmission to pivot independently of each other. Not a good thing. No wonder there's a problem with motion control. I'm lucky, and the previous owner was lucky that those 1/4" bolts didn't snap while driving.

 

Needless to say, I put the correct bolts and lock washers back in and torqued them up. I have not driven it since, but will later this afternoon.

 

EDIT: Okay, I took it for a test run. First observation, now that the engine is not leaning to the left, the starter is not fully engaging, and it's grinding. It did start, so I'll deal with that later.

 

Motion control is no better. Actually, it's worse.  Now I cannot return to neutral from reverse without depressing the neutral/brake pedal.  Seems I have a lot more issues to work out when I next return to the problem. Shop time is over for today.

Edited by rmaynard

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bmsgaffer

Wow! I'm glad to hear that the bolts lasted.

 

I hope the solidification of that mount solves the erratic behavior.

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rmaynard

Wow! I'm glad to hear that the bolts lasted.

 

I hope the solidification of that mount solves the erratic behavior.

 

Not solved yet.

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rmaynard

Curious to know if anyone else has ever seen the transmission mounting bolts come loose and fall out. The other thing is why would the previous owner only replace the bottom ones and more curious, why use 1/4" bolts with nuts? It's got me scratching my head.

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shallowwatersailor

Sorry to hear of all the problems. There is a reason for the motto that you use! Obviously the PO didn't follow that rule.

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boovuc

Hey Maynard,

 

I'm guessing that it has been like that for a long time and now you have wear to the parts that have been angled over the years. I can't come up in my mind though why that would have any effect to the starter since that is full forward of the engine with no frame ties.

I would venture to say that most if not all the bushings on the motion control shafts, pivot points, etc will need work or replaced. Your brake pedal shafts/pivots the same. They would have been strained over time. Especially with everything flexing as you stated. Make sure your pulleys and idlers are all lined up also before using it much or you may be chewing up a belt.

When you first started explaining the issue, I thought you were going to tell us that you suspected it rolled over. Not that the frame/tranny bolts were missing and jury rigged.

 

I would bet you already did this but before much more use, make sure the four bolt square of the frame isn't cracked. This is common on manuals and hydros with tractors that pushed snow or had loaders and also that used the 60" mower deck that flex the frame more than usual over time.

 

It isn't even officially winter yet! You have time to get it right before the grass starts greening!

 

Good Luck!

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rmaynard

Interestingly, my first thought was roll-over, or a busted frame. I had taken a quick look earlier in the week to see if the plate was cracked, and never even noticed the missing bolts. However, in my defense, the entire area was so packed with oil and grass clippings that it was a bit difficult to see. I noticed the shiny heads on the lower bolts, but didn't even think about the fact that they were undersized.

 

So, I now surmise that the bolts vibrated lose. I've never seen that before. The upper bolts stayed in, but the lower bolts came completely out. In his haste to make a temporary repair, the previous owner attempted to replace the lowers, but now that the shifting of the plate caused the upper holes to become egg-shaped, the lower holes didn't line up and 1/4" was the only size that would fit into the holes. Since the lower bolts screw into a flange on the transmission case, a long bolt could be put through the plate and flange, then a nut put on the back. After some more time passed, the uppers worked completely out, leaving the situation that I discovered.

 

I had to replace the drive belt due to a large chunk being missing, and the alignment looks fine. As soon as I get another chance to work on it, I am going to replace the cam plate and cam, then work my way forward to the motion control lever, tightening or replacing until I have smooth motion.

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rmaynard

...I can't come up in my mind though why that would have any effect to the starter since that is full forward of the engine with no frame ties...

 

I think it may have to do with so much grass and oil all over the frame and engine, I may have gotten some in the bendix of the starter. I blew that area out again with compressed air and the starter seem to be working fine now.

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shallowwatersailor

I'm sure that it is still a good tractor, Bob. You'll get it sorted out!

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rmaynard

I think it's going to be a good tractor too John. When I first started the engine I had a banging noise that sounded a lot like a rod. However, I was most pleased when that sound went away after replacing the drive belt. A one inch chuck was missing and causing the noise. The engine sounds great, but I'm still going to pull the heads to check for valve problems. Monday morning I plan to sort out the motion control linkage and go from there.

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rmaynard

I had a chance to do some work on the tractor today, and with that said, I am still perplexed. :banghead:  Let me try to explain my motion problems.

 

I can be moving forward at any speed, and if I pull back on the motion control lever, the tractor does not smoothly slow down, it abruptly brakes and jerks the tractor. It does the same thing if I am going in reverse. Push the lever forward and the tractor abruptly jerks. Keep in mind that the lever is not going past the forward/reverse stop position.

 

If I use the neutral/brake pedal to stop, it stops normally. If I pull or push the motion lever very gradually, I can return to neutral without the jerking.

 

What I have done...

I replaced the cam speed control plate with a brand new one. Replaced the cam with new, replaced friction washers and springs.  I tightened all the linkage. There is very little play now, and I wouldn't think it would cause that kind of jerking. With the engine stopped, the motion control lever now moves smoothly. I adjusted the cam according to the manual to prevent creeping in neutral.

 

This situation reminds me why I love manual transmissions.

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Martin

You could try playing with the friction adjustment. Try more and less to see if it helps. Very minor adjustments......

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rmaynard

Tried that Martin. Makes no difference in the jerking. Another way of explaining it is it's like dynamic braking is being applied anytime the lever is moved in the opposite direction that you are moving.

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Martin

My 416 h had jerking like what you are describing and the pivot stud for the cam plate being loose in the bracket was most of the problem.

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woodchuckfarmer

My 518 with the 1100 eaton dose this if I shift the control to fast

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