bmsgaffer 2,043 #101 Posted December 11, 2014 (edited) You can check out this post here by Bob Maynard: Which leads to this PDF on static timing: http://mgonitzke.net16.net/tools/static_timing.pdf Its towards the front of the tractor by the fuel pump but on the PTO side. Under a cover. Edited December 11, 2014 by bmsgaffer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
km3h 543 #102 Posted December 11, 2014 Fellows, please take a look at the photos of the engine with the head off. Tell me if it looks like the valve seats are loose. Especially the photos where the valves are removed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nrowles 25 #103 Posted December 12, 2014 I am leaving early tomorrow to go to camp for the weekend so I will be out of commission for a few days. I think I need a breather on this anyways. Kick back and drink a few beers. Motor is a K321. I do have a service manual but it doesn't always explain things very well for dummys and it covers different models with different parts. The valves are at a slight angle making them not completely flush with the block. The one end is flush and then they angle down. Is that why you think they may be out of place? They were definately not sticking up above flush with block and they seemed very solid and tight. My not turning over problem still has to be battery or starter, right? We ruled out connections and solenoid with jumper cables. Or can the not turning over be something else such as points or timing? Thanks for indicating where the points are. I thought they were under the flywheel. I will check out the link above in regards to timing. Should I still pull the flywheel and check the key? Did I miss anything? Whew! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ericj 1,576 #104 Posted December 12, 2014 what part of harrisburg are you from i'll send you a pm i work near harrisburg maybe we can see if our schedules can match up and i'll see if i can help you out. i know there's people out there that are better at helping than me but i'll see if i can help you out eric j 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nrowles 25 #105 Posted December 12, 2014 what part of harrisburg are you from i'll send you a pm i work near harrisburg maybe we can see if our schedules can match up and i'll see if i can help you out. i know there's people out there that are better at helping than me but i'll see if i can help you out eric j I appreciate that. I'm actually about 45 minutes north of Harrisburg 10 minutes off the 11/15 highway from Liverpool towards Richfield. I use Harrisburg because most people even from PA don't know where Liverpool/Richfield are. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Geno 1,928 #106 Posted December 12, 2014 Fellows, please take a look at the photos of the engine with the head off. Tell me if it looks like the valve seats are loose. Especially the photos where the valves are removed. Something doesn't look right to me either. The piston is oversize so someone has been in there before and that worries me a little... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ericj 1,576 #107 Posted December 13, 2014 i had a friend that was from liverpool years ago. so i know about were you are and yea that's a little to far to run after work. do you have any way of hauling it. might be able to get don varos on here to let us use his place which is just below harrisburg to meet up and work on it at his place i'll do what i can to help you out. call me and see what we can work out eric j Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nrowles 25 #108 Posted December 14, 2014 Fellows, please take a look at the photos of the engine with the head off. Tell me if it looks like the valve seats are loose. Especially the photos where the valves are removed. Something doesn't look right to me either. The piston is oversize so someone has been in there before and that worries me a little... Below is a picture of another K321. As you can see the valve seats are more "set in" on the side towards the piston. I am thinking because of the lighting and poor pictures that it appears loose because of the shadow due to it being more "set in" on the one side. My valve seats looked exactly like the ones in the picture below. Does this make sense based on the pic below? And what do you mean by loose? I was really working on them with cleaning the carbon off and lapping the valves and they are definately not loose to where I could move them while claning. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
km3h 543 #109 Posted December 14, 2014 If you valve seats are like the above engine, then everything is ok. That subject is now closed in my mind and we can go on from there. Did you use the jumper wire I suggested before? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nrowles 25 #110 Posted December 14, 2014 If you valve seats are like the above engine, then everything is ok. That subject is now closed in my mind and we can go on from there. Did you use the jumper wire I suggested before? Does post #82 paragraph 3 answer your question? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
km3h 543 #111 Posted December 14, 2014 (edited) Let's assume you have a good strong battery. You hit the strt and it won't turn over. Pull the plug and it spins. There is not much that can cause this. First suspect would be weak starter. This is easy to fix, but costly. You can't test a starter simply by putting 12 volts on it and watching it spin. It may spin good with no load but not have enough strength to turn the motor when it has a load on it. Second suspect is timing. What can cause this? Not exactly sure on your engine, but the first and easiest thing to check and fix would be the key in the flywheel. You have to pull the tin and remove the nut holding the flywheel in place. The keyway must be alligned exactly. If it is even slightly bent you will have to pull the flywheel and put a new one in. Third and hardest to fix would be the compression release. All of these engines have them. I believe on your engine it works off the timing gear and causes the exhaust vlave to remain open until the starter pushes the engine to a certain RPM. You can test the compression release by removing the head and watching the exhaust valve as you spin the motor. If it stays open on the first several revolutions, it is probably in cood condition. I live in Baltimore County. If I lived closer to you I would be glad to come up and take a crack at it. You are at least a hundred miles from me. Now if you want to remove that motor and bring it down here. I will find out what is wrong with it and maybe we can get it running in short order. I have several starters that I know are in good order and a lot of hot battery's. And I have all the tools needed to do the job. Edited December 14, 2014 by km3h Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nrowles 25 #112 Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) Another newbie mistake. Reason engine would not turn over.......I gapped the valves on the wrong stroke (I think that's what I did wrong). So I was told how to gap the valves without pulling the head. Pull the cover, compress one spring completely and gap the other valve, then same for other valve. Regapped the valves, had the battery load tested, cleaned all connections, and checked the points gap. motor is now turning over great but is still not starting. It is getting closer though. On every single key turn it gives me a few "puts" and dies. It did not do this so easily before. I'm getting extremely frustrated at this point. I checked the timing. At the very point the points start to move apart I can see the "S" through the sight hole. How accurate does this need to be? I put a long screwdriver through the center of the hole and put a level on it to make sure I was centered. I then looked at where the screwdriver toughed the flywheel and it is touching the "S".....but there is a LINE underneath the "S" and the screwdriver is probably 1/4" above that. Is this close enough? I am going to find some large sockets and hopefully the flywheel tools to take the flywheel off and check the key. It seems I may be at a dead end if it is not the timing or flywheel key. I will start questioning myself if I have everything put back together and sealed correctly. How do you ultimately know if it is a piston seal? It seems you could lose compression in many ways. I do have spark but can it be a weak spark and how do you know if it is weak? Experience tells you? Edited December 17, 2014 by nrowles Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ericj 1,576 #113 Posted December 17, 2014 do you have a feeler gauge i've never gap pugs without a feeler gauge although i've seen and heard of using a matchbook. you need to use a 18 to 20 gauge i haven't set points for awhile but if i remember correctly i set them at 18. if the gap isn't correct, you won't get proper spark eric j Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nrowles 25 #114 Posted December 17, 2014 do you have a feeler gauge i've never gap pugs without a feeler gauge although i've seen and heard of using a matchbook. you need to use a 18 to 20 gauge i haven't set points for awhile but if i remember correctly i set them at 18. if the gap isn't correct, you won't get proper spark eric j I do have a feeler gauge. It was getting decent drag at .020 so I left it be. It was a bit hard to see how they looked but there were no obvious flaws that I could tell. I did rub some fine sand paper between them just to touch up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmsgaffer 2,043 #115 Posted December 17, 2014 Do you have the ability to do a video? (post on youtube and link here. make sure it is not set as "Private") A decent few-minute video with a couple start attempts pay help people with sights and sounds. This is the hardest part of the troubleshooting, sticking with it when you are close! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anglo Traction 759 #116 Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) I checked the timing. At the very point the points start to move apart I can see the "S" through the sight hole. How accurate does this need to be? I put a long screwdriver through the center of the hole and put a level on it to make sure I was centered. I then looked at where the screwdriver toughed the flywheel and it is touching the "S".....but there is a LINE underneath the "S" and the screwdriver is probably 1/4" above that. Is this close enough? To answer a few of your non clarified questions, this pic/info may help you better understand- Black Arrow indicated direction of rotation. White arrow indicates a Bar in the Casting representing alignment marker seen centrally through view aperture. Blue Arrow indicates Top Dead Centre of Piston/Stroke. Yellow dotted line represents your estimated position of Points opening (spark occurring) This current position for a spark will not prevent your engine from firing/running....trust me. It represents approx. 18 degrees before Top Dead Centre (BTDC).The Manual should quote 16 Degrees as optimum static timing setting (marked by the line under the 'S' on the Flywheel). The 0.020" Point Setting is an ideal setting, but does not allow for worn parts like Cam Lobe, Breaker Push Rod or Points. The greater the wear (or reduced points gap) the more advanced the ignition becomes (nearer TDC). A good spark on a correctly gapped and clean Plug (should be 0.035" on yours as per Manual). It should be clearly audible when tested by laying it against a clean Ground on the Cyl Head and be visibly blue in colour. It's good that you've done the Head Clean/Gasket leak etc, but I also agree with others here that your main problem is still with the Carb. Your getting there ..........and sorry........... I lied when I said I would not interfere Edited December 17, 2014 by Anglo Traction 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
boovuc 1,090 #117 Posted December 18, 2014 I think we should all head to Liverpool and have a beer at the Friendly Tavern once you get this figured out! (And I have had a lot of beers at the Friendly but this was over 20 years ago). Since I never look anymore, it may be closed or changed names! I do hope you get this puppy running again! It would make a nice Christmas present to yourself! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nrowles 25 #118 Posted December 18, 2014 I think we should all head to Liverpool and have a beer at the Friendly Tavern once you get this figured out! (And I have had a lot of beers at the Friendly but this was over 20 years ago). Since I never look anymore, it may be closed or changed names! I do hope you get this puppy running again! It would make a nice Christmas present to yourself! Never heard of the Friendly Tavern but there are a few taverns and inns around. I could use a beer right now....or three or four or five..... Well guys I'm pretty much as far as I'm going to go. I don't think there is a single thing you guys mentioned that I didn't check and I gapped and torqued when specified. I tried to get a video on here of how it's acting but I have an iphone and can't figure out how to get it on my pc. The thing fires every key turn but will not keep running. I have a buddy that knows plenty about this stuff so I'm gonna get him to help me. He works night shift so our schedules are completely different so not sure when this will happen. Every one of you will laugh but I probably have 30 hrs in this project from the beginning, from the work itself to running all over getting parts, pieces, tools, etc., reading the service manual and posting on this forum. This has been a major letdown. I'm pretty much done unless you guys have any comments on the following: When I turn the flywheel by hand, I hear a puff of air at some point in part of a stroke around the valve cover / carb area. Not sure if this is normal and can't tell exactly where. For the valve cover I cut my own gaskets out of gasket material and they did fit well. It seems there might be gas coming out of carb around the pin that holds choke shutter and also where the throttle enters the carb on top. Not sure if this is normal during plenty of nonstarting. Tractor makes a whining noise when turning over, almost like the sound it makes when the plug is out. I don't remember it doing this before. Thanks for all the help and I will post back when anything has changed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
km3h 543 #119 Posted December 18, 2014 Try it one more time with the jumper wire from the battery to the positive side of the coil. It could be that you have faulty ignition switch. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmsgaffer 2,043 #120 Posted December 18, 2014 So close! I think it will be good to step away from it for a while but don't give up! As you have learned, the first time always takes the longest but then you will know whats going on! I agree with Nick, try the jumper wire trick now that you have everything else seemingly in order. Its hard to know if you may have tested some things that worked when it was out of time or the valves were gapped wrong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trouty56 565 #121 Posted December 18, 2014 Only need compression, fuel, and spark.... Has the carb cleaner spray into the throttle body been suggested?? Then try to start it?? See if he gets some action? Dang this is a long thread!!! Most full restore threads are shorter..... Definitely a lot of members are in on the support....I like to see this.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nrowles 25 #122 Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) The video should be below. Figured it out this morning. Let me know what you guys see/hear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X-dWHpVU0o Edited December 18, 2014 by nrowles Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trouty56 565 #123 Posted December 18, 2014 It is turning over rather slowly....almost seems like there is no choke being applied and or the throttle is closed.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nrowles 25 #124 Posted December 18, 2014 It is turning over rather slowly....almost seems like there is no choke being applied and or the throttle is closed.... When I pull the choke I can see the choke lever on the carb move quite a bit. I could always pull the air cleaner off and see that it is wide open when not choked and shut when choked, correct? And the same for throttle at carb which also moves well with the throttle lever. "Linkages" set up incorrectly? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldlineman 1,450 #125 Posted December 18, 2014 Not an expert but I believe I saw a puff of smoke come out someware close to the carb, could the carb be lose or bad gasket , hope you get this you are close I believe. Bob Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
