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nrowles

Hard Starting 1981 C-145

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I may be wrong but it looks like your valve seats are out of the block a bit. It is hard to tell from the photo. In every engine I have ever worked on the valve seats are flush with the block. Someone else jump in here and take a good look. When I went back to the other photos I noticed the exhaust valve seat is protruding into the combustion chamber a bit. Before you do anything else, wait for some other opinions. You did a great job of cleaning things up. 

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I may be wrong but it looks like your valve seats are out of the block a bit. It is hard to tell from the photo. In every engine I have ever worked on the valve seats are flush with the block. Someone else jump in here and take a good look. When I went back to the other photos I noticed the exhaust valve seat is protruding into the combustion chamber a bit. Before you do anything else, wait for some other opinions. You did a great job of cleaning things up. 

 

I can assure you valve seats are flush.  Pictures are terrible.  I have been working in low light conditions all week.  I can't wait to put up my 30x40 garage next year.  Paying off some loans right now.

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I am glad to hear the seats are flush. In that case I think you are well on your way. I would go ahead and put the new head gasket on it now and then you won't have to redo it later.  

Edited by km3h

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I am glad to hear the seats are flush. In that case I think you are well on your way. I would go ahead and put the new head gasket on it now and then you won't have to redo it later.  

 

I was thinking the same thing on the new head gasket.  It wasn't even $20 new.  I would think the only reason the head would come back off is if total teardown was needed and this tractor better start after all this or I'm gonna need help in the shed from somebody that knows a lot more than me.........and maybe some help from a shrink too.

 

I think at this point then I only have one more question before I put it all back together.  The local shop said they don't even put new gaskets at the valve cover, so they don't have them in stock.  It would appear mine may have been slightly leaking.  He told me to use a very thin layer of auto gasket sealer.  Would the product in the link below work for this?  I know there may be something else that's bigger and better, but will this one work?

 

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/permatex-ultra-black-maximum-oil-resistance-rtv-silicone-gasket-maker-.5-oz-22072/7310173-P?searchTerm=gasket+maker

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That should work. You will have to make sure everything is very clean when you apply it. Absolutely no oil or it won't seal. I have used permatex blue and had no problems.

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I was thinking the same thing on the new head gasket.  It wasn't even $20 new.  I would think the only reason the head would come back off is if total teardown was needed and this tractor better start after all this or I'm gonna need help in the shed from somebody that knows a lot more than me.........and maybe some help from a shrink too.

 

I think at this point then I only have one more question before I put it all back together.  The local shop said they don't even put new gaskets at the valve cover, so they don't have them in stock.  It would appear mine may have been slightly leaking.  He told me to use a very thin layer of auto gasket sealer.  Would the product in the link below work for this?  I know there may be something else that's bigger and better, but will this one work?

 

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/permatex-ultra-black-maximum-oil-resistance-rtv-silicone-gasket-maker-.5-oz-22072/7310173-P?searchTerm=gasket+maker

 

 

My Kohler CH 15 on the 315-8 came factory with a Permatex smear gasket and it leaked from day 1 - bought gasket material on E bay and it's been bone dry for 1 1/2 years .

Edited by Lagersolut

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Do this : Then post back .

 

Take a set of jumper cables , scratch & connect one of them ( black ) to one of the head bolts & the other end of the same cable ( black ) to the - ( negative ) post of the battery , then see how she rolls over .

If there's no change in cranking speed , connect the ( red ) end of the other jumper to the positive (+) terminal on the starter , then the other ( red ) end to the + ( positive terminal ) on the battery .

 

 

Well guys here's the deal.  I got the tractor all put together last night and torqued and gapped where possible.  I did not check points yet though because I didn't have a socket that big and figured that stuff is easy to get to if it doesn't start and I need to look further.  I will check them at some point either way.  I have some good news and some bad news.  Good - I'm pretty sure my compression has increased significantly.  Bad - I think my starter may be going down.  Will they work but not so well?   It works but seems to be very weak.

 

I think I have greater compression because motor tries to turn over but won't (starter motor?), just like when I put oil in the plug hole creating more compression and it wouldn't turn over, when it previously was turning.  After reassembly, I pulled the plug and turned the motor and while it was turning put the pressure gauge over the plug hole and it stops turning immediately.

 

I think my starter is going down because I followed the procedures in the quote above and nothing changed whatsoever, can't get motor to turn with plug in.  I did not get to check the voltage on my battery yet but I am leaning towards the starter because the battery is new.  There is a slight chance the battery is fried though because when I bought it, it was already dead/low from sitting in store and I have been abusing it over the last few weeks trying to get this tractor to start.  It has been on a tender the whole time though and the tender says it is charged. 

 

If I don't get any feedback on this post, I will do the following and post back with results.  1.  Test charged battery voltage.  2.  If charged battery voltage is good, buy a starter and replace (I see some on ebay for $50 with free shipping).

 

Once again thanks guys you have been extremely helpful.

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Check and clean all your connections to the starter first.

 

Also check to make sure you have a good ground from the engine and shaker plate to the frame. (You can test this by putting a jumper cable on a non-painted engine bolt straight back to battery ground before starting next time.

 

There is usually a heavy wire that attaches the shaker bolt to the frame and I have had that connection wear and cause problems before.

 

If all this doesnt work, Sometimes a starter can be revived a little by just disassembling it and cleaning it with electrical contact cleaner inside and reassembling it. There is a thread on this somewhere...

Edited by bmsgaffer

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Check and clean all your connections to the starter first.

 

Also check to make sure you have a good ground from the engine and shaker plate to the frame. (You can test this by putting a jumper cable on a non-painted engine bolt straight back to battery ground before starting next time.

 

There is usually a heavy wire that attaches the shaker bolt to the frame and I have had that connection wear and cause problems before.

 

Sometimes a starter can be revived a little by just disassembling it and cleaning it with electrical contact cleaner inside and reassembling it. There is a thread on this somewhere...

 

I would have thought (but what do I know) that using all ends of the jumper cables (see quote in my last post) would have bypassed connections, but yes I will clean connections.

 

I don't know what a shaker plate is.  Man I am such a newbie.  I did do what you suggested though, I think.  If you look at the quote in my last post, I did all that with jumper cables with no change.

 

If starter is problem, I will try your suggestion before buying a new one.

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The shaker plate is the plate the engine is mounted on. On the C-series black hoods the engines were mounted on a plate that was connected with rubber bushings to the frame intending to dampen the vibrations. If you grab your engine and shake it it will move slightly independent of the frame.. thus the term shaker plate. :handgestures-thumbupright:

 

I just want you to use ONE jumper wire from a bare bolt to the battery "-" or negative, dont connect the red side to anything. This isnt bypassing anything it is just reinforcing a connection that should already exist.

 

Oh I skimmed the posts and missed the one about jumper cables, sorry for doubling up! :hide:

 

Good luck! The insides are now clean and tight so you are really getting this narrowed down!

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The shaker plate is the plate the engine is mounted on. On the C-series black hoods the engines were mounted on a plate that was connected with rubber bushings to the frame intending to dampen the vibrations. If you grab your engine and shake it it will move slightly independent of the frame.. thus the term shaker plate. :handgestures-thumbupright:

 

I just want you to use ONE jumper wire from a bare bolt to the battery "-" or negative, dont connect the red side to anything. This isnt bypassing anything it is just reinforcing a connection that should already exist.

 

Oh I skimmed the posts and missed the one about jumper cables, sorry for doubling up! :hide:

 

Good luck! The insides are now clean and tight so you are really getting this narrowed down!

 

So I guess we're on the same page that I did what you were suggesting with the jumper cables.......one jumper wire between bare bolt and negative battery terminal and I had no change.

 

I really think my problem was the head gasket as far as not starting when turning over.  The area under/over/around the one side of the head gasket looked unsealed badly.  I was really expecting it to start last night and then it wouldn't turn over.  What a let down.

Edited by nrowles

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Yep, you got it on the jumper cables. That's a bummer.

 

Have you tried jumping it with a vehicle just to be sure its not a bad battery? I have purchased bad ones before... At least its just another easy test before disassembling the starter and/or buying a new one.

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Yep, you got it on the jumper cables. That's a bummer.

 

Have you tried jumping it with a vehicle just to be sure its not a bad battery? I have purchased bad ones before... At least its just another easy test before disassembling the starter and/or buying a new one.

 

I have used a charger on 50 amp start that helped with the battery but that was back when I was really abusing it trying to get the tractor started.  So I'm sure it was drained a bit due to that.  I can try the jump start again since the battery is fully charged on tender to see if that makes a difference.  I think I have a voltage tester at home too that should work to check it.

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The voltage testers alone can be deceiving. A battery can show 12v or so but when put under load drop too low. They should be load tested.

 

So if you have an extra pair of hands or alligator clips, test battery voltage while trying to start it and that should give you some idea. If it doesn't drop very much at all that can also lead us to the starter being bad too, not drawing enough current. If it drops too low, bad battery.

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Just read this thread through and considering this is all new to you, your getting plenty of advice and assistance and you'll have done what I consider to be standard maintenance on a 'new-to-me-machine', so credit to you for perseverance.  I also won't add or interfere with your progress,

except to ask if there is an hour meter fitted to the Tractor?.

I see from your pics that your Grandfather may well have had the Engine overhauled as a result of complying with the Kohler service recommendations and had De-carbonised the engine after 500hours of use. It will explain the '509h' marked in yellow under the removed Cylinder Head.

It will also mean that the wear rate and subsequent need for a Re-bore of +0.010 was found.

The amount of Carbon build up shown is way less than what I have found on any of my old wrecks  when acquired.

So if you have an Hour Meter fitted?, I would be interested to know what it currently reads.  Keep up the good work, your not short of help on here!.  

 

 

 

     

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Just read this thread through and considering this is all new to you, your getting plenty of advice and assistance and you'll have done what I consider to be standard maintenance on a 'new-to-me-machine', so credit to you for perseverance.  I also won't add or interfere with your progress,

except to ask if there is an hour meter fitted to the Tractor?.

I see from your pics that your Grandfather may well have had the Engine overhauled as a result of complying with the Kohler service recommendations and had De-carbonised the engine after 500hours of use. It will explain the '509h' marked in yellow under the removed Cylinder Head.

It will also mean that the wear rate and subsequent need for a Re-bore of +0.010 was found.

The amount of Carbon build up shown is way less than what I have found on any of my old wrecks  when acquired.

So if you have an Hour Meter fitted?, I would be interested to know what it currently reads.  Keep up the good work, your not short of help on here!.  

 

Thanks for the motivation.  I told my wife that somebody that knows what they are doing would have spent 1/4 the time I have working on this.  I spent an hour trying to remove the valve keepers ("sleeve type") and when I finally knew what to do it only took me about a minute each to remove them.  Same with putting back in.  I spent 1 1/2 hr until I found the trick at which point it still took me 1/2 hr.  I will definitely feel accomplished when this tractor starts.  If it weren't sentimental from my grandfather I would probably be extremely angry with the whole situation given I was not expecting to do any of this.

 

For the meter, I am fairly certain it does not have one. 

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It is extremely gratifying to get something that has been in the family and make it work again. I suspect that somewhere your grandfather is watching you with a gleam of pride in his eye.

 

When you try to start the tractor does it turn and then stop at the same place every time?

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It is extremely gratifying to get something that has been in the family and make it work again. I suspect that somewhere your grandfather is watching you with a gleam of pride in his eye.

 

When you try to start the tractor does it turn and then stop at the same place every time?

 

I'm not sure.  It will budge very slightly but not keep going.  I don't know where it is at in the cycle.  What does that mean if it does?  Should I try to move the piston to another position and then try starting?

Edited by nrowles

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I sure wish you were closer. I feel your frustration and have been hoping you hit the"aha!" Moment.

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If I was sure that your starter was in good order, I would then say that your timing is off. Or that your valve seat has moved into the combustion chamber. That is the reason I asked you about the valve seats before. Timing can be affected by the key in the flywheel shaft or the points not set to specs. As for the Valve seat, if it protrudes into the combustion chamber, it will not allow the auto compression release to operate properly.

 

Lets take one thing at a time. Remove the spark plug and turn the ignition switch to start. With no compression to impede the piston, it should spin over rapidly. You did say in an earlier post that you saw smoke at the starter so it could be bad. Before you run out and buy a new one though why not remove the flywheel and check the points and the key. The key only has to be bent a small bit to throw things off.

 

You have come a long way in a short time. Don't get frustrated now. We all want you to succeed in getting this engine up and running.

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If I was sure that your starter was in good order, I would then say that your timing is off. Or that your valve seat has moved into the combustion chamber. That is the reason I asked you about the valve seats before. Timing can be affected by the key in the flywheel shaft or the points not set to specs. As for the Valve seat, if it protrudes into the combustion chamber, it will not allow the auto compression release to operate properly.

 

Lets take one thing at a time. Remove the spark plug and turn the ignition switch to start. With no compression to impede the piston, it should spin over rapidly. You did say in an earlier post that you saw smoke at the starter so it could be bad. Before you run out and buy a new one though why not remove the flywheel and check the points and the key. The key only has to be bent a small bit to throw things off.

 

You have come a long way in a short time. Don't get frustrated now. We all want you to succeed in getting this engine up and running.

 

He should have a K series. Not a magneto. Points are run off a pushrod on the side of the engine, not under flywheel. :handgestures-thumbupright:

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He should have a K series. Not a magneto. Points are run off a pushrod on the side of the engine, not under flywheel. :handgestures-thumbupright:

 

 

I would agree except he stated he could not check the points as he did not have a socket large enough to get to them so I assumed that someone had changed engines.

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I would agree except he stated he could not check the points as he did not have a socket large enough to get to them so I assumed that someone had changed engines.

Hmmm good point... we should get this clarified.. it would make a big difference!

 

nrowles: Pictures please! Or at least list some numbers from the tag on your engine...

 

Does it look more like this rounded housing:

tp691b.jpg

 

Or this (squared off housing):

Kohler%20M16.jpg

Edited by bmsgaffer

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This guy doesn't seem to really know a whole lot about the engine so I figure he may not know where the points are.....just my guess....from the pics he posted it looks like a K series to me....

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Actually, looking back at the pictures we do catch the edge of the K321 tag. K series it is.

 

Nrowles, you should only need a flat-bladed screw driver to get to the points and some small sockets. You may have to take the exhaust off to get to them though (i had to).

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