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nrowles

Hard Starting 1981 C-145

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Any updates ? 

 

 

I believe everything with the starting system is fine. The battery was drained bacause of cranking so much to try to start and testing. I put the battery on a charger/tender for a couple days and it cranks well now.

 

I put more than a couple drops of oil in the plug hole but there is none coming out of the hole or making my plug wet and the dipstick is not reading too full.

 

Next step is taking the head off as suggested.  I decided I am not going to do this in my cold, cramped, dirty shed.  I need to get with one of my friends that has a heated garage to do this.  May be awhile since it is now deer hunting season in my state of Pennsylvania and everybody is busy with that including myself going to camps for the weekends and what not.

 

This tractor has been so close to starting a couple times now after readjusting the carb.  A couple times now I have actually had it fire but dies after a few seconds.

 

It may be awhile but I will post back after taking the head off.

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I looked over this before...has anybody suggested re-gapping the points or filing them a bit????  Maybe a valve adjustment also....last things to do before pulling the head....

Edited by Trouty56

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30-50 lbs on a compression test shows the problem.  Compression has got to get a lot better than that. 

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30-50 lbs on a compression test shows the problem.  Compression has got to get a lot better than that. 

 

And you are taking into account the Automatic Compression Release that this motor has?  The service manual states a compression test is not accurate because of this feature.

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as stated the tester you have is not accurate,and the only way to perform a compession test is too hook another tractor up to the pto and let the 2nd tractor spin her till the acr is not in play at full revs,and I fully agree with pulling the head,but you will need a torque wrench to install the head bolts at a proper torque,i have a couple of machines I pulled the head and found the exhaust valve all carboned up,and I have done some heads without replacing the gasket

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I have a couple questions and also wanted to see if anybody had any input on another test I did before I pull the head which will be either this weekend or the following.

 

I noticed that the muffler has a crack so I was going to replace it.  There are 2 different mufflers that I am seeing for this engine.  One like what it currently has on it which is a 16" long muffler.  There is also a short round muffler that somewhat looks like a "muffin".  What is the difference between the 2 other than appearance?  Performance, noise, what brand tractor it's on, etc.?  I imagine I will get the same one but was just curious.

 

In post #53 Trouty questioned if I should regap or file points.  Is this something I should consider at this point?

 

Please nobody freak out but I did one more test that was cheap and easy for me to do.  I tested the vacuum while cranking the engine.  I used a vacuum gauge with a rubber stopper and plugged the oil tube with it while cranking the engine.  It was reading 4 inches of vacuum and the needle did not go the opposite direction (youtube video I watched indicated opposite direction was bad) of a vacuum.  This seems like it could be a good thing to me.  The service manual does indicate it should be 5 to 10 inches above level while engine is running (which obviously I can't do), so maybe 4 inches that I am getting while cranking is not adequate though.  Does this indicate or help with anything?

Edited by nrowles

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Cleaning and re-gaping the points is always a good thing to do. The point gap also partly determines timing so it may help. Certainly can't hurt anything.

Edited by km3h

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The points should be gaped according to the Kohler spec and checked for pitting. (Where you look at the flat surface of the points to see if there is any raised areas or burned area that will effect the spark-gap). The flat area of your points should be just that. Flat with no debris or pitting.

If there is pitting, you need to file it smooth again and reset the gap.

The nominal points gap on a K321, (14 HP K Series), is .020" This is essentially the same spec on most K series points.

While your at it and since they are so cheap, buy a new condenser for it as well.  

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This was actually much easier than I thought.  I probably should have taken the gasket off before taken the majority of the pics.  If you need pics of something else let me know.  I have not installed new gasket yet because I want feedback on what you guys see.  The oily look outside of the gasket is I believe from when I was putting oil in the plug hole and made a bit of a mess.  The gasket was completely loose when I pulled head off.  Is this normal or should it have "stuck" a bit?  Also, how would you know by looking at this if the piston seals / compression are bad?  The cylinder does not appear to have any scratches/scoring but I really don't know what I'm looking for.  Should I be cleaning anything before putting head back on?  Valves look a bit dirty.  If after putting this back together it still doesn't start I will be checking valves and points for adjustments/cleaning.

 

IMAG0266_zps75f28a47.jpg

 

IMAG0267_zps74121915.jpg

 

IMAG0268_zps0302c53a.jpg

 

IMAG0270_zps0b10a5ae.jpg

 

IMAG0269_zps4f6c2bc7.jpg

 

IMAG0271_zps424c2dce.jpg

 

 

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Yikes , what were you adding to the fuel ?

That's a whole lot of carbon .

 

I didn't add anything to the fuel but I just got this tractor over the summer.  I don't know what my pap may have put in it.

 

Also, when looking at the pictures, the right valve the dry looking one........has some type of hard crusty dry buildup around it.

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I would remove the valves and give them and the surface of the piston and head a good cleaning. Put the valves back and set them to specs. Sometimes the gasket is stuck and sometimes it is not. Would like to see a good photo of the head. I think I am seeing a bit of leaking on the side where the exhaust valve is. Hard to tell from the photos though. How hard were the bolts to get out? If they weren't torqued to specs, that would account for the low compression readings. The walls of the pistons look good from here.

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I would remove the valves and give them and the surface of the piston and head a good cleaning. Put the valves back and set them to specs. Sometimes the gasket is stuck and sometimes it is not. Would like to see a good photo of the head. I think I am seeing a bit of leaking on the side where the exhaust valve is. Hard to tell from the photos though. How hard were the bolts to get out? If they weren't torqued to specs, that would account for the low compression readings. The walls of the pistons look good from here.

 

The head bolts were easier to get loose than expected, but again I never did this before.  I used a 3/8" ratchet wrench and I had to put a little force to only 1 of the bolts.  The rest of the bolts wwere consistent though.  Here are a couple more pictures.

 

IMG_9177_zps1e1ea24b.jpg

 

IMG_4523_zps7de70dfb.jpg

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They should have been harder than that to take out. Sounds like someone had them out and then did not tighten them to specs.

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The good news is the valves don't look burnt and are seating. You need to "de-carbon" everything including cleaning up the valves and the valve seats. There are threads on the site on how to decarbon motors and what to use to do it. You also don't want to get that gunk down/around the cylinder.

 

How did the points look or didn't you get a chance to look them over yet?

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The good news is the valves don't look burnt and are seating. You need to "de-carbon" everything including cleaning up the valves and the valve seats. There are threads on the site on how to decarbon motors and what to use to do it. You also don't want to get that gunk down/around the cylinder.

 

How did the points look or didn't you get a chance to look them over yet?

 

I did not get to the points yet.

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Edit.......Found answer to my question.  Will use solvent on stubborn deposits.

 

I went out this morning and took a wire wheel to the carbon.  One side of the area where the gasket was came out smooth very easily.  The other half has a bunch of carbon bumps like the gasket design as if the gasket was not completely sealed.  These carbon bumps are extremely hard to get off.  Should I just keep going at it until they come off or do I have to be careful?  I went over a 3" long section lightly for probably 20 seconds straight and they are not completely gone.  Also, the top of the piston says .010 so I assume this engine has already been rebuilt at some point?

Edited by nrowles

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I haven't read all of this thread, but from the pictures it tells me you are plenty wet under the hood. So to save some money and time. I would clean everything up, use the old gasket for now and put it together with a new plug and set your point. You may have just over fueled it and flooded the hell out of it and killed your plug. if she starts try and set your carb and fine tune it. Then by a new gasket and go from there. The low compression could have just been caused by washing down the cylinder walls from all the failed attempts to start.

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 Will use solvent on stubborn deposits.

 

 

 

Then be sure to change the oil afterwards .

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Doesn't look like the head was tighten right at the exhaust side, I just did an M-10 and it was 25 ft lbs 1st time around in sequence - 30 ft lbs 2nd time around same sequence

 

Here's the sequence for a 10 hp M-10 - I don't imagine it's different - hope it helps

 

10  to  16 hp pictured 16 has10 head bolts

 

 

s60ux4.png

Edited by Lagersolut

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Doesn't look like the head was tighten right at the exhaust side, I just did an M-10 and it was 25 ft lbs 1st time around in sequence - 30 ft lbs 2nd time around same sequence

 

Here's the sequence for a 10 hp M-10 - I don't imagine it's different - hope it helps

 

10  to  16 hp pictured 16 has10 head bolts

 

 

s60ux4.png

 

I thought the same thing on the gasket.

 

I do have a service manual instructing sequence and torque of head bolts.

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I thought the same thing on the gasket.

 

I do have a service manual instructing sequence and torque of head bolts.

 

 

Cool beans, like the other guys said , get everything cleaned up good, points adjusted etc use the old gasket to see if you get fire in the hole .   after I got her running,  I'd get a fresh head gasket on it .

 

 

Good luck.

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Here are a couple updated pictures.  Valves have been remove and cleaned/lapped.  Head and block have been cleaned.  I am going to get valve cover gaskets tomorrow because they were leaking.  I am also going to get a condenser and points since they are only $20 and I'm planning on getting in there.  Then she can all go back together to be torqued and gapped when necessary.

 

The lighting sucks, but you can see some pitting (the checkered look) on the block and the head is the same way.  Is this going to cause a problem?

 

How do my valves look?  The one on right appears to be cupped on the angle where it contacts block.

 

IMG_3155_zps2eac9e99.jpg

 

 

IMG_0028_zps91ac20a3.jpg

Edited by nrowles

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The stem on the exhaust valve looks a bit shiny , & yes the face looks concave from here.

The intake look good from that angle , though we can't see the entire circumference .

If they're consistent all the way around , you should be good to roll.

Edited by Digger 66

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