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Transmission locked in 2 gears at once

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I love those drawings too Garry. I have to wonder how they got all that detail in those years. There was enough detail to (inconclusively) show that up to 1962 the rear hub setscrew was 90 degrees off the keyway but in 1963 it was over the keyway that came up recently. The part numbers remained the same though. But, with their use of the same drawing for several years I haven't been able to pinpoint when they started the flats and full circumference detents on the rails. It was 1965 when the switch was made from the 35's to the 56's on the rails per the part numbers on the individual transmissions in the 58-64 Dealers Parts Manual. Also, with them going to reference numbers instead of part numbers (ie: section V, 4 speed unidrive in the transmission repair manual) compounds the issue. I suspect that they may have continued with the 56xx part numbers on the later rails with flats.

 

Steve, remember the suction issue will be worse when the transmission is put together. The suction will have some assistance from the other half of the case in the form of pressure. Suggestion. Grind the flat in one of the rails. Then do the video comparing the two side to side. I'm going to tinker with mine today. I have both types of rails and split cases. I'll have to get some gear oil on them since they are now clean.

Edited by Racinbob
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Garry...incredable...good eye Mate.  :)

You are right Bob...I did not event think about the pressure coming back.  :handgestures-thumbupright:

Brian's using a hydro!!  :ROTF: That is one way to solve the problem.

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Here is a thought that just occurred to me.  We all know there is confusion about what viscosity oil to put in your WH transmission.  They start out using 90 wt, then go to 40 wt...some go to 10W-30.  I have always wondered why all this about different oils for the same horses.  Maybe, the lighter viscosity oil is part of trying to relieve this pressure/suction issue with the shift rails.  This is all tied together.  :eusa-think:

        Need to go back and see if there is a date they started changing the oil viscosity recommendations.  Betting it is between 1963 and 1965.  :handgestures-thumbupright:

         Bob, you are going to have to do the experiment, my shift rails have the flat.  The only thing I could use is the post for the reverse idler, and I already know that has suction when trying to remove it and pressure when you try to put it back in.  One other thing that screams oil pressure...after finishing building a trans and putting the left half back on...it will usually go all the way down until the last 1/4".  You give it a minute and then start to tighten the bolts...the case closes the rest of the way.   :)

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:twocents-02cents:   While you have a transmission torn down for rebuilding if you were to drill an 1/8" hole near the outer end of the sockets the shift rails go into this should eliminate the potential of a vacuum being created while speed shifting.    :auto-layrubber:

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Richard, that (I think) would work...heck, I know it would work...the trans I have apart has the flat ground on the rails already.  It is the one in my 702 that I rebuilt a few years ago that could use either the flat grind...or the hole drilled in the pockets of the trans cases.  :)   I could drop that trans tomorrow and replace it with the one we are talking about and be alright.  I hope I can wait until spring to do this.  I do not want to go through trying to get into neutral (while on the curb) again.:eusa-think:

        In the long run, I am trying to identify the differences between these type II transmissions...ie...5007, 5025, 5046, 5048, 5049, and 5053.  It is starting to look like some of the differences are related to the changes in these shift rails.  Pretty much, a different trans number would  project a change in a major part number to solve some issue the company was having...and show a service bulletin.  The only difference between the 5007 and the 5025 is the fill plug on the 5007 is 1/4" ... the 5025 is 3/8".  That is the only difference.   The #5048 was in the Lawn Rangers 1965...L-105 & L-135...they had an axle and axle gear attached (welded).  A kit #7168 would get rid of those axles and axle gears and put in the parts that were in the 5053...thus making the #5048 a #5053 transmission.  I am going to guess here that the #5046 became the #5049 in 1965 because of the suction/pressure issue and what they did with the shift rails.  I have a feeling that the #5025 became the #5046 for the same reason...but did not really solve the issue.

        The type II bevel differentials (5045, 5047, 5051, 5059 and 5058) were subject to the same suction/pressure issue, and while they had other issues...the production numbers should reflect either both the shift rail issue and/or the bevel gear issues.   

         What I am typing here reflects only the 1st generation, 2 half case transmissions.  The 3 piece RJ58 and Suburban 1960 and 1961...#5003 & # 5010 have other issues, but not these.

         The next generation of transmissions...the 4 & 6 speeds had their own issues, but none of these...might be why Wheel Horse evolved to this next generation of transmissions....could also be changes in the company.  :)

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Steve, on that viscosity thing, it was in 1964 addressed in service bulletin #55. They specifically stated that "Extensive testing has proved that fewer gear locking conditions occur while using SAE 40". But it wasn't nearly as effective in the middle of a South Bend winter :rolleyes:. It was just another one of the steps they took as the engineering evolved.

You have a pair of rails with all shallow detents but with the flat. I believe those went in the 5046 but they retained the 35xx part numbers but it's not clear when they started milling the flat. The 5048 was the first transmission where they used the 56xx rails which had the deeper neutral detent and the longer stop pin as well as the flat. After the rail upgrade they went back to recommending 90 weight oil because the problem went away with the new rails.

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You guys are amazing!  I have my old 3 speed waiting for a tear down one day and at the very least it'll get a flat ground into the rails.  Thanks in advance from a non-hydro guy.  This has happened to me enough that I keep a 7/16" wrench and a long bolt under my seat and I double nutted the set screw on the shifter for "in the field" repairs!

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Pullstart...thanks, but I think all of us Wheel Horse guys are amazing.  Here are a few pictures of the shift rails that I found in my 3 speed.  Notice the notches are of the early variety...probably like what you will find in yours...minus the flat.  :)

 

2008_0122TRANSNEW10001.thumb.JPG.8bcd667

2008_0122TRANSNEW10002.thumb.JPG.2425df3

2008_0122TRANSNEW0002.thumb.JPG.e33608ab

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Yeah with a passage that nice, there's no way oil would want to create a vacuum!  Are those roll pins or set screws holding the forks to the rail?

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Ya talked me into it Steve. My first ever videos to demonstrate what's been discussed here.

First, the old 35xx rails with three equal detent grooves.As I mentioned, ignore the flats in this case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYJogeN_c7Y

Then, the 56xx rails with the deeper neutral detent and longer stop pin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykk9n1T-7Uw

Then the suction issue. I neglected to mention that you could simply grind a flat rather than find some with flats but you all knew that.:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US19PYdEPqw

One thing I'm sure the engineers weren't thinking about is what will happen after 50+ years of wear and tear. Other issues crop up and I guess that's where it's up to us kids playing with our toys to find solutions for them.

What did I do wrong? I guess you can download the videos and view them.:no:

35xx_Rails.AVI

56xx_Rails.AVI

Rail_Suction.AVI

Edited by Racinbob
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They are roll pins.  :)   Part #933156   Roll Pin 1/8" x 1"

Bob, those videos are fantastic...well done.  :occasion-xmas:  :handgestures-thumbupright:

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I think I got the video issue fixed. Go to the youtube videos and forget the .AVI files. :)

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On ‎12‎/‎15‎/‎2015 at 11:35 AM, stevasaurus said:

Bob, those videos are fantastic...well done.  :occasion-xmas: 

 

I agree, very great explanation!  It's like learning from mistakes... vs learning from reading and forgetting about it!

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Thanks guys. I don't know that I'd call it learning by mistakes but, as I mentioned before, more like engineering on the go. I found it fascinating to see the progression and thought process from the engineers 50+ years ago at a relatively small company like Wheel Horse. I thunk they done good :)

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I currently have a transmission ready for reassembly but was trying to understand the best way to avoud this rail issue with the two different sets of rails I have. Now it's clear thanks to you. Great videos. 

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They done very good, I was more or less comparing the videos vs discussion... you can talk to someone about something vague and pick up a few things.  or you can do it yourself (and sometimes make mistakes) and really get a good understanding.  The videos give great understanding to what's going on!

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