Raider 12 no spark issue

[NYRedNeck 4]

Hey Guys,

 

Today i picked up a Raider 12  I do not know the year as the tag is missing..  I am not getting any spark at the plug  This engine has no points so i am not at all familiar with this setup..  Can anyone offer any tips on what to check?

 

At one point i thought i saw a spark at the plug but only when the key came back to the run position.. Something killing my spark when key switch is in the start position but not in the run position???  

 

Any ideas would be great  Thanks 😃

 

[oldredrider 2,547]

Try disconnecting the "M" wire at the switch. Make sure the wire isn't contacting anything and see if you have spark now. If so, you may have a switch problem.

[NYRedNeck 4]

Try disconnecting the "M" wire at the switch. Make sure the wire isn't contacting anything and see if you have spark now. If so, you may have a switch problem.

Hi thanks for the help.

I have come to learn this tractor is a little bit of an oddball raider 12 . The model number is 1-6231 according to the id tag. That should be a 1968 Raider 12 with an eight speed tranny. It is a 6 speed tranny as the decal also indicates Raider 12 6 Speed

The engine is the k301s with a spec no 47371C. Which was used on the 1970 Raider 12.

[oldredrider 2,547]

It's not really an oddball. What you have is a 1968 Raider 12. In '68 they had "6 speed" transmissions which were really 8 speed transmissions, if you count reverse. In the late '60s the designation was changed to 8 speed, mostly as part of marketing.

The original engine was probably replaced along the way by a previous owner, and that's why the spec numbers don't match those of a 1968.

[NYRedNeck 4]

Thank you for the clarification on that I figured the motor was swapped. How would I bypass the ignition switch to jumpstart it?

[oldredrider 2,547]

Since we can maybe assume the motor was swapped, or maybe just the shroud with the engine numbers, it is REALLY important to know what kind of ignition system you have. If it is battery, the coil will have 3 posts on top..2 small posts and the igntion post (spark plug wire post).

The magneto ignition coil only has the spark plug post on top. There will be a small post on the bottom of the coil.

Rather than going into hot wiring both types of ignitions, let us know which one you have.

[NYRedNeck 4]

I have a breakerless system which matches up with the spec no 47371C for the 1970 raider 12 engine. It has only 1 wire at the bottom of the coil and one at the to the spark plug.

It has a trigger and rectifier regulator.

[oldredrider 2,547]

To hot wire that engine, remove the "m" wire from the ignition switch. Tape the wire or move it away from any contact point...that is your kill wire. (Takes a bad ignition switch out of the circuit.)

Next, hook a jumper cable from positive side of battery post to the large solenoid post opposite of the starter post. Lastly, use an insulated wire from hot side of battery to the small trigger post on the solenoid. Tractor should turn over and start. If it does, either choke it out or ground out the "m" wire to kill the engine.

Let us know what happens.

[NYRedNeck 4]

To hot wire that engine, remove the "m" wire from the ignition switch. Tape the wire or move it away from any contact point...that is your kill wire. (Takes a bad ignition switch out of the circuit.)

Next, hook a jumper cable from positive side of battery post to the large solenoid post opposite of the starter post. Lastly, use an insulated wire from hot side of battery to the small trigger post on the solenoid. Tractor should turn over and start. If it does, either choke it out or ground out the "m" wire to kill the engine.

Let us know what happens.

I will try next weekend.  I did a quick check and it does not look like they sell any of the electrical components any longer, is that correct?  

I got a little side tracked this weekend and picked up a suburban 551 i believe.  Will start a new thread for that one and post pics of the Raider here and the Sub on the new thread.  Thanks again for your help.  

[oldredrider 2,547]

Parts are out there. Don't sweat the small stuff!

[NYRedNeck 4]

Couple of pics.

[NYRedNeck 4]

Pics of the suburban

 

[NYRedNeck 4]

To hot wire that engine, remove the "m" wire from the ignition switch. Tape the wire or move it away from any contact point...that is your kill wire. (Takes a bad ignition switch out of the circuit.)

Next, hook a jumper cable from positive side of battery post to the large solenoid post opposite of the starter post. Lastly, use an insulated wire from hot side of battery to the small trigger post on the solenoid. Tractor should turn over and start. If it does, either choke it out or ground out the "m" wire to kill the engine.

Let us know what happens.

So i could not find the M on the back of the ignition switch. It looks like it has been replaced. However more important, I could not find a Solenoind.  This ignition system has a rectifier mounted under the dash.  

The tractor turns over when turning the but no spark at the plug.  Anyone other ideas?

 

[oldredrider 2,547]

Certain models did not use a solenoid but ran the starter circuit through the ignition switch.

Disconnect the 3 prong connector from the rectifier. That isolates the ignition switch and charging system from the engine. Now try starting the engine by running a jumper cable from positive side of battery to post on the starter. Negative post on battery should be wired to a grounding point on the frame or engine.

Tractor should have spark at this point.

Let us know what you get.

[NYRedNeck 4]

Certain models did not use a solenoid but ran the starter circuit through the ignition switch.

Disconnect the 3 prong connector from the rectifier. That isolates the ignition switch and charging system from the engine. Now try starting the engine by running a jumper cable from positive side of battery to post on the starter. Negative post on battery should be wired to a grounding point on the frame or engine.

Tractor should have spark at this point.

Let us know what you get.

Thanks, I wont have any tinker time till not this Thursday but next.  Will keep you posted.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,478]

I'm wondering if the ignition switch has be damaged by the fact there is no starter solenoid. I don't recall a Kohler with a charging stator and Bendix starter not having a starter solenoid and without one that ignition switch is going to get real hot.

 

Garry

[oldredrider 2,547]

Garry, since this motor has been swapped, anything is possible!

I've done a lot of improvising myself to get the end result needed.

[NYRedNeck 4]

Garry, since this motor has been swapped, anything is possible!

I've done a lot of improvising myself to get the end result needed.

It is a 68 Raider 12 with an engine matching the spec no for the 1970 Model.  The specs show this as a breakerless system.  Wiring diagram shows everything that is on this tractor.  No solenoid.

Attached is a few photos. Hope it helps.  

Not sure if the ignition is original or replacement.  The missing connector is for the lights and cig lighter. When connected both the lights and lighter work.

Hopefully you can see the rectifier in the photo.

 

[oldredrider 2,547]

That appears to be the 3 prong ignition switch that carries the high amp starting circuit...just as I suspected.

I have a '68 Raider 9 (Techy powered) that came with the same switch.

[NYRedNeck 4]

That appears to be the 3 prong ignition switch that carries the high amp starting circuit...just as I suspected.

I have a '68 Raider 9 (Techy powered) that came with the same switch.

So what does that mean? lol

Edited September 10, 2014 by NYRedNeck

[oldredrider 2,547]

It means the high amp voltage is carried through the ignition switch instead of using a solenoid. The switch is expensive to replace because the are getting scarce. The solenoid and "modern day" switche set up is a much better way to go if the your current switch goes South.

[NYRedNeck 4]

It means the high amp voltage is carried through the ignition switch instead of using a solenoid. The switch is expensive to replace because the are getting scarce. The solenoid and "modern day" switche set up is a much better way to go if the your current switch goes South.

So I can still try what you mentioned earlier? 

Disconnect the 3 prong connector from the rectifier. That isolates the ignition switch and charging system from the engine. Now try starting the engine by running a jumper cable from positive side of battery to post on the starter. Negative post on battery should be wired to a grounding point on the frame or engine.

Tractor should have spark at this point.

 

[oldredrider 2,547]

Yes. Try it first with spark plug removed and grounded to see if you are getting a spark.

[NYRedNeck 4]

Yes. Try it first with spark plug removed and grounded to see if you are getting a spark.

In my early stages of troubleshooting this thing with the plug out, i got no spark at the plug when the key was turned all the way to the right|start position. When released to the run position is the only time i saw a spark.  Does that tell us anything?

Thanks for the help, much appreciated.

[oldredrider 2,547]

The switch may be at fault, that's why we're taking it out if the circuit by diconnecting the rectifier and jumping the starter