92 416H ELECTRICAL PROBLEM NO START

[km3h 543]

I have a 92 416H. It won't start with the key. I have worked on it most of the day and can't seem to find the problem. Turn on the ignition switch and idiot lights work as usual. Hit the test switch and all lights work. I can hear the starter relay click. I switched relays and it still clicks. Also the 25 amp fuse blue one time today and I replaced it. No more problems with that. The seat switch has been bypassed by previous owner. I checked the connections to make sure the bypass was working. I will fix this problem when I install the new seat so don't holler at me. I believe in them.

 

At one time today I had it working and tested it several times. I put the sheet metal I had off to test the safety switches back on and no start. Took it off again and still no start. Checked the voltage of the battery and it reads 12.4 volts.  

 

Now the strange part. When I remove the blue wire from the solenoid the voltage is 11.8 volts. a drop of .6 volts. This should excite the solenoid and start the engine. The engine will start if I use a jumper wire from the battery to the terminal the blue wire goes on.

 

I just thought I should check the ground wire which I did not do today and will tomorrow. With the key on, the lights work and are bright.

 

When I turn the key to start, the volt meter goes to zero. Not sure if that indicates a problem or not.

[Geno 1,928]

Can you energize the sloenoid by jumping the battery terminal lead (at the solenoid) to the blue wire terminal?  Voltage and amperage are also different things.  Rule #1 in electronic trouble shooting, always use a test light along with your meter.  A lot of times you can have voltage but the connection is so bad that when you try to draw amperage through it (like a test lamp bulb) the bulb will not light or be very dim.  If you have voltage on a meter but it will not light the test light it will tell you that there is a weak connection in the circuit.  

 

Hope this helps.

 

Just thought of something else.  On the older models a bad voltage meter or bad connection there will cause this.  You can try bypassing the voltage meter also.

 

There is a schematic on here also -

Edited July 18, 2014 by Geno

[km3h 543]

The engine will start if I jump from the battery directly to the solenoid terminal the blue wire hooks to. Will try the light tomorrow. Good thought.

[Geno 1,928]

Also try jumping the battery terminal lead at the solenoid to the blue wire terminal.  If it doesn't work at the solenoid you could have a connection problem there.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,488]

Detailed diagrams

http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/2108-tractor-1992-1997-416-8-416-h-wiring-detailed-492-4509pdf/

 

Garry

[km3h 543]

Thanks Gary

If I read the schematic and the diagrams properly, the start relay is the last item in the circuit. If voltage comes from the relay then the circuit is complete. I have voltage on the blue wire going to the solenoid so I assume that the entire circuit is operating as it should, meaning that the safety switches are functioning as they should.

 

Since I have a voltage drop of six tenths of a volt at the blue wire I am thinking I have a dirty connection somewhere. What say you?

[Geno 1,928]

I would think 1/2 volt drop would be normal after going through all the safety switches, connections and the ignition switch.  Most solenoids of this type will still work at 9-10 volts of input.   As you can see in the schematic there are a lot of connections in the circuit before it gets to the solenoid, a switch is considered a connection also.  The soleniod is always last in line when safety switches of any kind are involved, it's the only way they can do there job is by interupting the solenoid. 

 

Don't forget about the amperage test. 

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

Thanks Gary

If I read the schematic and the diagrams properly, the start relay is the last item in the circuit. If voltage comes from the relay then the circuit is complete. I have voltage on the blue wire going to the solenoid so I assume that the entire circuit is operating as it should, meaning that the safety switches are functioning as they should.

 

Since I have a voltage drop of six tenths of a volt at the blue wire I am thinking I have a dirty connection somewhere. What say you?

Just apply a jumper wire a shown in the pic below.

 

This will bypass all switches and possible bad connections from the wiring harness.

 

If jumpering the Battery (+) post to the STARTER post cranks the engine, then try the jumper in the pic below. If the engine doesn't crank with the trigger terminal jumpered, the starter relay is bad.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2014 by Save Old Iron

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 10,488]

There should be 2 relays the same. One for start and one for seat. Can't find them in the ipl's until 1996 - part number 116397.

If they are in fact the same relay switch them to see if that makes a difference. Contacts could be dirty/burnt causing resistance under load.

 

1996 ipl

Relays are shown on page 17 item # 17

 

Garry

[km3h 543]

Just apply a jumper wire a shown in the pic below.

 

This will bypass all switches and possible bad connections from the wiring harness.

 

If jumpering the Battery (+) post to the STARTER post cranks the engine, then try the jumper in the pic below. If the engine doesn't crank with the trigger terminal jumpered, the starter relay is bad.

 

 

 

 

Did that and it starts right up.

[Geno 1,928]

Very nice illustrations Save Old Iron.  Now we know the solenoid is good. 

[km3h 543]

I checked the blue wire at the solenoid with a test light that also has a ringer. The light was dim and the ringer did not sound. Seems there are not enough amps or voltage to make the solenoid do its job. Will now have to check each individual safety switch. They are a pain in the neck to get to. GRRRRRRRRRR.  

[Geno 1,928]

I love test lights!  You have voltage but no amperage.  Take the test light and start testing the switches. You can pierce the wire with the test light a little back from the switch where it may be easier to get to.  Once you find the one with a bright light on one side and dim on the other you will have found it.  Unless there is more than one.  It may be a switch or connection at the switch problem.  You could also unplug them one at a time and jump them with a paper clip till you find the one if that's easier.     

[km3h 543]

Nothing is easy when it comes to the wiring on a Wheel Horse. Every safety switch is in a hard place to reach. But rest assured I will prevail. One step at a time. Just not today. It is too hot. Maybe tonight after the sun goes down or early tomorrow morning. No hurry as I am long retired and have other tractors to cut grass with.

[Geno 1,928]

Start with the easy ones first, you may get lucky. 

 

In my first post to you from what you described I suspected a bad connection.  I spent 13 years in the 12V electronics industry before the past 20 of owning my own business that does automotive and tractor general and electrical system repair and still doing that although I semi retired last year.  Time to live life a little.  I am watching your post through the day and will help any way I can.  If it gets really bad I don't care to give you my phone # at the shop.  Sometimes it's hard to convey a message with typing.

[km3h 543]

Found the problem. Now I have to fix it. There is a fuse block holding three fuses. the socket for the 30amp fuse if in very bad shape. I have to find a new on. Gary do they still stock them.

[Geno 1,928]

So glad you found it!    I usually pull the terminals out of the block and replace them.  The less cutting and splicing on the tractor the better. 

[km3h 543]

Today I put the new fuse block in the 416H. The contacts were shot in the old one. Only one problem with trying to connect two wires into the same insert. Luckily when I ordered the parts, I got some extras. Also bought a new  ratchet crimper and that made it a lot easier.

 

 

Here's a photo of the old block. What a mess. No wonder it would not start.    

 

 

This is what the new one looks like. Quite a difference.                                         

 

Some tools I used to do the job,                                                                          

 

My new crimper.                                                                                                    

 

 

The crimper was a bit costly, but I have two more of these to do plus build a complete wiring harness for my 417A. Besides what good is starting a new project if you don't have the pleasure of buying at least one new tool. Got the parts from Dell City and they are really great people to deal with.                                       

                                 

 

 

[Geno 1,928]

Nice work finding one just like the original.  You'll find those crimpers a life saver too.  

[km3h 543]

Well I bought the first on from a Toro dealer and it was almost $13.00. When I got it there were no inserts supplied with it. What a bummer that was. Martin pointed me in the right direction and Dell City sold them for a little over $4.00 with inserts. So I bought three of them and some other things I will need for the other tractors. Dell City is a great company to deal with. The communication after I placed my order was great. They wanted to make sure that I was satisfied and had received what I needed. They also sent me a great catalog listing all the parts you can't get by walking into a local store.   

[Geno 1,928]

If I'm not mistaken they are GM fuse panel inserts.  I keep a drawer full of them.  Thats how I fix fuse blocks but yours did look pretty melted.     

[boovuc 1,090]

It's funny but after reading this at the very beginning, my first thought was to look at the fuse block after three posts since both my 520 and 416 had deteriorated contacts within the block and many others experience the same issues with a drop in current due to poor fuse contacts. (And melted fuse ends).

[Geno 1,928]

The second post in here I mentioned the amperage test which would have immediately narrowed it to a connection problem. In the shop though I have seen more starter relay, starter relay connections, switch, switch connections, and switch adjustment type problems than fuse blocks.  Some of it may also have to do with how they are taken care of, like being left outside, or the area you live in, like closer to salt water.