old horse stranded in the snow!

[kicked by a horse 22]

Hey all,

I hate to saw it but my 160 is stuck out in the snow. After dropping a new battery in, cleaning contacts, removed the solenoid,  I may have narrowed the problem down to the starter. I isolated it and tried testing it (see picture, can anyone confirm this is an adequate way to test the starter?) and it has no response.

I cant quite figure out how to remove it for a closer look. I tried loosing the rear shroud to see how it is attached and can see one inaccessible bolt, but that's it. Anyone have any suggestions? I am guessing I need to remove the shroud/housing but am not sure how. I have the manuals but don't see starter or shroud schematics anywhere, am I missing something?

 

The snow is still coming down on top of the foot we had last week, for the first time I am hopping it will let up so I can still get out of my 300 foot driveway...

 

 

[SousaKerry 500]

Yeah that should kick it over but i would attach to the heavy wire coming off of the starter not the terminal itself.  I have seen a bad connection melt those terminal threads right off then your screwed. 

 

I don't have much experience with D's but it may be that your starter is locked to the flywheel.  See if you can rotate the engine back and forth by hand, try to avoid smacking the starter with a hammer or you'll break the magnets and then it's done.  Best to get the manual for the engine, it will show you how everything comes apart.  Is that an Onan?

[Lane Ranger 10,472]

We had a C121 with the Wheel Horse generator on it this summer running and used the generator to provide electricity for a drill as we rebuilt the back lift door on an old 24 foot truck bed we use for storage.   We turned the tractor off went to lunch after working an hour or two (plus it started raining in buckets) and came back about an hour later.     Tried to start the tractor and no go.     Turned out the starter was no good.  However, we used one of the portable batter pack starters to try and jump the tractor.   Battery on tractor was good and we used battery pack to jump the starter one or twice (which you normally do not want to do as you can burn up the starter)  -a no go -!   Turned out the starter was worn out!  

 

If the starter is not kicking or moving when you use your battery jump starter I would guess that it is bad and or the bendix is stuck!  I would think you need to remove it to test further.

[kicked by a horse 22]

Thanks for taking the time to chime in, good to know I am on the right track with the starter, i will head back out and keep looking into how to get it out. and yes it is a 1978 onan

It just kills me to have all this snow and i cant go play in it with the horse  

Edited December 17, 2013 by kicked by a horse

[WH nut 553]

Im not familiar with that old an Onan, but the newer ones have 2 bolts that run parallel with the starter  from starter to Flywheel side of the motor. On the 520s you have to take the tin off and raise the motor a couple inches

[JackC 616]

I have a 1977 D-160 with the ONAN BF-MS engine that I bought with a bad starter.  Removing and replacing the starter turned out to be a big job. If I remember correctly, I disconnected the engine from the pump and basically took the front of the tractor apart so I could loosen the motor mounts, remove the flywheel tin and get to the mounting bolts for the starter.  I removed the mufflers and the front frame unit so I could move the motor forward enough to get at the starter mounting bolts.  I had the starter rebuilt at the local auto electric shop.  It was an exercise in really getting to know the front end of the tractor.  It was not a fun job.  The weather is supposed to warm up this weekend in MA so you may need to plan on spending the weekend just removing the starter.

Edited December 19, 2013 by JackC

[kicked by a horse 22]

Hey Jack,

thanks a lot for the explanation, although that is worse then I was anticipating it was going to take to get it out!

Yes fortunately the weather is warming up so I can still make it out of the drive way. Tractor is parked outside of the shop so I need to try and get it back in.

I will put the cables back on the starter one more time to be absolutely sure before digging in.

[JackC 616]

You certainly want to make sure the starter is bad before you tackle replacing it.  

Connecting a good battery directly to the starter, positive to the starter terminal and negative to ground, is the way to do it.

 

At about 1:15 into this video the owner confirms that changing the starter on the ONAN BF is not an easy job.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZtp4fgUpaQ

Edited December 20, 2013 by JackC

[JackC 616]

I had to move the engine forward and the flywheel tin back in order to get to the starter mounting bolts.

In order to move the engine forward I needed to take everything in front of it off the tractor.

This is how the front of the tractor looked in the middle of the starter replacement job.

The bungee cord is holding the flywheel cover out of the way.

 

[kicked by a horse 22]

Well, I have some good news and some bad news.

The good news is I was able to get the starter off in about an hour. I removed the two bolts from the flex coupler that were facing the pump. Also took the three screws holding the flywheel screen out and the removed the drip shield from under the oil filter. This allowed enough play that I could get to the two mounting bolts of the starter. It was pretty fidley getting them out,  but it worked.

 

So I put the starter in a vice, hooked up the cables again and it spins no problem! I am thinking I did not get a good enough ground contact on it when I was testing it before I removed it.  So I guess I will work backwards going over all of the wires again.

 

Original symptoms were hard cranking, would not turn over, and then stopped cranking all together, after replacing the battery, would not crank at all, just a hard clicking sound coming from the starter. same thing went I went directly to the starter.

 

How easy should the flywheel turn and what can I do to check it while I have access to it?

Edited December 21, 2013 by kicked by a horse

[JackC 616]

Take the plugs out and the flywheel should turn easily since there will be no compression holding it back.  You can check all the teeth but I doubt you see any problem there

 

Great that you got the starter out so easily.  Now that it is out I would definitely go through the starter before putting it back in.  The starter could still be the problem and have worn brushes and work intermittently.  You can take the starter apart and inspect it and even fix it yourself with a kit or have it done or buy a replacement. There should be some repair kits and complete starters on eBay.  Search for "ONAN BF-MS starter"?  You may even be able to get a kit or a new starter through the Sears parts department since that engine was used on some Sears tractors.  We also have Smith Auto Electric here in Pittsfield and he is reasonable for a rebuild including brushes and bearings.  However,  new is not that expensive on eBay. 

[kicked by a horse 22]

Thanks for hanging in there with me Jack, It is a big help.

I got impatient and put the starter back in, got everything hooked back up, tried to start it and nothing. Just a click sound at the solenoid.

When I put the starter on, the teeth were not engaged (see the photo) after I tried starting it, they are now engaged.

I also borrowed a multimeter and checked for voltage drop between the battery and starter (as described in the "cant even jump" thread) and it was .4 which I guess is acceptable and would seem to suggest the starter is the problem. I will check for a new one on ebay, if its not to expensive I just assume replace it.

 

[JackC 616]

I would not trust a used starter.  After over 35 years of use a starter needs to be overhauled or replaced.

Check out the new starter at Bay auction 310402279779.  Just put the auction number in the search field.

[kicked by a horse 22]

I pulled off the started again and took it apart. I don't know much about what things should look like, but I guess this is pretty dirty. 

I had been looking on ebay for over a week for a starter and didn't like the used options, that new one just showed up yesterday and I promptly bought it, I did make an offer on it and got a slightly better deal.  Now just to wait on shipping to see if this will solve it.

[WH nut 553]

A good clean would help this one. Take your ohm meter and check your armature on lead one individual segment, other lead to  shaft, should be open on all segments

[kicked by a horse 22]

_UPDATE:

_{Well after further investigation, it looks like I have a stuck flywheel. As I was putting the starter back in, I noticed it would not turn. I pulled the plugs and took the snow blower belt off and still nothing. the front pulley spins freely.}

_{Any ideas for trouble shooting from here? I recently replaced the oil and filter, I just checked the oil level and it was over the full line, but I have not run it more then 15 minutes since changing the oil.  I also winched the tractor about two lengths(it rolled)  to get it back into the shed, any way this would have caused an issue?}

_{Should I start a new thread in the engines area for more help?}

_Thanks.

[JackC 616]

Is the engine disconnected from the hydraulic pump?  If the unit has been sitting in the cold the fluid in the pump could make it hard to rotate the flywheel.  If the engine is disconnected from the rest of the tractor front and back, and the plugs are out, and there is nothing interfering with the flywheel, and the flywheel still does not turn, then the problem must be in the engine. A new thread under the engine section would help.

Edited January 4, 2014 by JackC

[ARK 9]

From picture of stater apart, the commutator looks dirty.  The commutator bars must be higher than the insulation.   The black is usually carbon dust which in conductive and should be cleaned.  Pull the starter out, and bench it take pictures to help.  Clean everything, bearings, armature, commutator, springs, metal.  Undercut the commutator with a broken hacksaw blade.  Clean examine and grease, if bearings are rough, grease or replace.

 

Testing a series wound motor can not be done without a load on that motor equivalent to a cold engine.

 

Applying power to an unloaded series wound motor only indicates it turns, works with low amps.  In the tractor that motor draws up to 3x, 300% of its amps.  If alignment with bearings is loose or crooked it will jam.  Check out put shaft rotate it be certain it rotates in a circle, wobbling is no good, mechanical rough spots are bad.

 

After freeing up the flywheel a rebuild may help because if left it will let you down later, take too much power, burn out things like wires, cables, relay, battery and starter motor.

 

If over your abilities have it checked out at as motor rewind shop.

[JackC 616]

I believe he bought a new starter.  He started a new thread under the engine section and last we heard he was working on freeing up the flywheel.

[Desko 552]

The stuck flywheel problem is these onans like to pressure lock when you change oil if u use a cheap filter it had happens to my dads d160 once he had stated that he had changed oil in it not to long ago just my .02 cents