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Fishroe

New guy stumped on charging system

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I had an auto-ranging meter that screwed me while troubleshooting an alternator on one of my tractors.  I don't remember all the details, but when the meter was on auto-ranging it was giving me completely wrong numbers.  If I selected the correct range myself the numbers suddenly made sense.

 

(BTW, it was Chuck that worked out what I was doing wrong and steered me in the right direction).

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Well folks i've finally made some progress.  The biggest problem was the dummy operating the meter (me)  After putting the selector switch on 200 vdc not 20 i have 33vdc from diode lead and 24vdc for headlights.  My next question is are they the right values.  I'm assuming the 33 volts will go down by the time it gets to the battery.  got 33 volts going into ignition switch on R terminal. Going by tractor wiring diagram, if i'm reading it right, i should have voltage coming out of B terminal going to solenoid.  I have nothing.  Put meter on contuinity position (after finally reading manual) touched r and b  suppose to beep if less than 30ohms  i had a "1" which is open circuit.  Am i doing everything right so far?  the wiring is in rough shape on this tractor because it has been left out in weather but motor and transmission work great.  My next question is where can i get a new plastic wire connector holder for the ignition switch probably will need some of the other ones also.  also need those old style connectors,  i think i remember reading somewhere packard something.  Hopefully i will have a charge to battery after replacing ignition switch.   Once again thanks for the help.  I'm sure i'll have more questions.  I would've liked to seen a brand new 414-8 to see how the wiring is set up.  Checked a couple places for a wiring harness.  Said it was no longer available.  I'll just do it one wire at a time.

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Sounds to me like you blew the fuse in your meter if you are showing an open when you touch the leads together while on the ohms scale. Never have your meter set to ohm s while checking voltage

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Well folks i've finally made some progress.  The biggest problem was the dummy operating the meter (me)  After putting the selector switch on 200 vdc not 20 i have 33vdc from diode lead and 24vdc for headlights.  My next question is are they the right values.  I'm assuming the 33 volts will go down by the time it gets to the battery.  got 33 volts going into ignition switch on R terminal. Going by tractor wiring diagram, if i'm reading it right, i should have voltage coming out of B terminal going to solenoid.  I have nothing.  Put meter on contuinity position (after finally reading manual) touched r and b  suppose to beep if less than 30ohms  i had a "1" which is open circuit.  Am i doing everything right so far?  the wiring is in rough shape on this tractor because it has been left out in weather but motor and transmission work great.  My next question is where can i get a new plastic wire connector holder for the ignition switch probably will need some of the other ones also.  also need those old style connectors,  i think i remember reading somewhere packard something.  Hopefully i will have a charge to battery after replacing ignition switch.   Once again thanks for the help.  I'm sure i'll have more questions.  I would've liked to seen a brand new 414-8 to see how the wiring is set up.  Checked a couple places for a wiring harness.  Said it was no longer available.  I'll just do it one wire at a time.

All things electrical......

 

http://www.pcsconnectors.com/packard56.aspx

 

http://theelectricaldepot.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=7_220

 

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/category/727/Switches-Snap-Action/1.html

 

http://www.delcity.net/

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Well folks i've finally made some progress. 

 

Very good, something just wasn't right with your results. This explains MOST of what you have reported back.

 

Next best step is to check the ohms function of your meter as WH nut suggested. Set your meter on low ohms, keep leads apart. You should see the "!" overrange indication. Touch the leads together. The meter reading should settle at a low ohms reading - usually some residual reaing around 00.6 ohms - very rarely will a meter read true 00.0 ohms when leads are shorted together.

 

Before we go any further, let us know what the meter readings are with these two tests.

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After putting the selector switch on 200 vdc not 20 i have 33vdc from diode lead and 24vdc for headlights.  My next question is are they the right values.  I'm assuming the 33 volts will go down by the time it gets to the battery.  got 33 volts going into ignition switch on R terminal.

 

First off, don't expect the higher than normal voltage to "correct itself" as it travels thru wiring, switches and connections. In a healthy wire harness, NO SIGNIFICANT VOLTAGE DROP is expected at any connection in the harness. Any significant voltage drop seen at a connection indicates the connection requires some attention and corrective action.

 

Now onto my old nemesis, the overvoltage situation in the 3 amp charging system.

 

hsfp3amp_zps4dccdc5a.gif

 

 

Those voltages are exactly 2x higher than they should be. This is not the first time we have seen folks with 3 amp charge systems "mysteriously" have their output voltages jump from 16 volts to 30 or even 90 volts!  Someone sent me a stator to investigate why 90 volts AC was present on the output of the charge coil. I have not yet had the opportunity to mount that stator on a tractor but I did do a preliminary visual and electrical check on the stator.

 

Visually, the 90 volt stator is in near perfect condition. No damage to the wiring, connections or metalworks of the assembly. Both stator windings ground properly to the metalworks of the stator.

Electrically, the stator checks out for proper resistance and and inductance under simulated operating conditions.

 

The only check I have not performed is how the 3 amp stator will act when used with a 15 amp FLYWHEEL.

 

I suspect we may have a mismatched stator / flywheel setup in your tractor and the stronger or additional number of magnets in the 15 amp flywheel casues the stator output to go way beyond its intended output.

 

I'm guessing you may not have any previous repair history on this tractor - you bought it like this ?  It is possible the previous owner put a substitute flywheel on the engine? Is it possible they may have substitured a more common 15 amp flywheel onto the engine?  Maybe we can tell with a pic of the flyheel magnet setup.

 

The ultimate "fix" for the last post concerning a 90 volt stator turned out to be the substituiton of the 3 amp stator with a 15 amp stator. This created a true 15 amp charge system on the tractor.

 

If you can score a stator and rectifier reg setup ($50 ?), a true 15 amp charge system is within your reach. I highly recommend considering this upgrade especially since you intend to rewire the entire tractor.

Edited by Save Old Iron

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Put meter on contuinity position (after finally reading manual) touched r and b  suppose to beep if less than 30ohms  i had a "1" which is open circuit.  Am i doing everything right so far?

 

Yes, but always do a sanity check on your meter before using it. The "1" is ok when the test leads are separated. Second check should be made by touching the meter leads together. A very low ohms reading should be seen, typically less then 0.5 ohms.

 

Multimeters have an internal fuse to protect the meter if resistance measurements are mistakenly made on circuits that are still powered up. Resistance measurements should ONLY BE MADE ON UNPOWERED CIRCUITS.

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Found the link i was looking for -

 

 

qd-16 sent the susupect stator to me to investigate. Physically, it is in perfect condition. It also checks out electrically. I suspect the flywheel on his tractor was intended for a 15 amp system as evidenced by how well a substitue 15 amp stator worked when placed on his engine.

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another thought ...

 

you mentioned how the voltage produced by the stator may not be reaching the battery thru the ignition switch. It is possible if the stator is not connected to a load (battery), the voltage output of the stator may increase. Increase by 2 times? I doubt it.

 

Maybe connect the diode output directly to the battery and see what voltage we now have across the battery. We can monitor the voltage closely to see if the battery begins to overcharge (at which point we would disconnect the jumper from the diode to the battery.

 

Looks like I have to throw another harpoon into my white whale.

Edited by Save Old Iron

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I read the link you posted old iron.  the stator and flywheel magnets are exactly like mine.  i cant believe that guy was getting 90 volts  thats a lot.  i'm getting 33 and 24.  the 15 amp systemwith r/r definitely sounds like a better system.  I just paid $100 for the new 3 amp stator. I guess i will just run it and hope it doesn't burn anything up.  Maybe the 33 volts will magically drop down.  Checked meter and it is working properly.  Back to ignition switch.   Mine has S  B  R  I  and A terminals.  Shouldn't i be getting contuinity between the B and R terminals with key switch in the on position.  I have 33 volts at the R terminal (engine running) but none going out on the B terminal which goes to solenoid. Isn't that the way the charge is supposed to flow, back to solenoid then to battery.  the battery voltage is still reading 12.55 with engine running

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Yes, there should be a switch map on the schematic for tractor wiring.

 

In the RUN position, the "B" and "R" terminals should show continuity. You should be able to measure continuity between the "I". "R" and "B" terminals.

 

I don't know if you mentioned if the engine was a K series or a Magnum ... just another sanity check question. I could never understand how a 3 amp charge system could be of any benefit on a coil based ignition system that by itself consumes 3 amps. leaving no real energy to charge the battery in addition to run the ignition system.

 

Unregulated 3 amp charge systems - I really dislike the concept.

Edited by Save Old Iron

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The switch map below shows all the pins that should be connected together in OFF, RUN and START positions.

post-1689-0-84152800-1385310927_thumb.gi

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Its the k321  I agree   wonder how long kohler used the 3 amp system

Edited by Fishroe

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Jump into the vendor section to grab a stator and reg unit for a 15 amp system. The conversion is simple and straightforward.

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Unregulated 3 amp charge systems - I really dislike the concept.

 

Time to design a regulator for one Chuck!  :hide:

 

I know someone that would happy to build one and be the guinea pig if you could come up with design!

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Another question guys.  When i bought the tractor the negative cable from the battery was grounded on a bolt screwed in battery compartment rail. Voltage meter is grounded there also. From there it went to the starter bracket bolt screwed in block (2 cables) I run 1 cable from battery to starter bolt for ground.  still left volt meter ground where it was.  that shouldn't effect anything would it?   How was it when it come from the factory if anybody knows.

Edited by Fishroe

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Just for sh!ts and giggles, try running a new ground with jumper cables. Eng. to battery and frame to battery and see what you get. Its all sounding like a grounding problem to me.

 

 How do the headlites look while running. should be dim at idle and increase with throttle  24-36 volts should fry them

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The charging system is finally working.  Replaced ignition switch   Started engine and had 13.60 volts   Went up to 13.75 in a couple minutes.   Drove it around yard for a few minutes then checked again  14.20 volts.  Maybe i did have a ground problem.  The only thing that was different was the plate that the ignition switch mounts was not attached to tractor, just laying by shifter.  I guess it needed to be attached to ground the switch.  Correct or incorrect.  Trying to learn all i can.  Was thinking about the 24 ac volts in headlight circuit.  Is this right:  24 volts x 3 amps equals 72 watts.  2 sealed beam lights 35 watts each.  I didn't think about checking voltage in that circuit today because i was so happy the thing was charging.  the lights are burned out anyway.  What do yal think?  Also found out today none of the safety switches are working, maybe just cleaning them up they will work

Edited by Fishroe
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Persistence works! Congrats on working it through to a successful conclusion.

 

If you remember, one of the first things that was mentioned was to check ALL grounds.

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I had a 65 chevy one time that blew the  bulbs.I had the car for a couple years and it just started blowing bulbs one day.A guy said you have a bad ground,I said I haven't changed anything.The ground wire was from the battery to the motor.I put a ground from the battery directly to the alt and never had another problem.

That's why I tell people to clean all of their connections before anything else.I had problems a couple months back with a tractor and had forgot my own rule,ended up after several day's cleaning and checking all connections,everything was fine.

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The charging system is finally working.  Replaced ignition switch   

 

Sounds right since you did not have any continuity between the R and B terminals - no electrical path for the charge current to travel from the stator to the battery. The metal shell of the ignition switch has no electrical connection to any part of the switch {in a coil based ignition system}. 

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Started engine and had 13.60 volts   Went up to 13.75 in a couple minutes.   Drove it around yard for a few minutes then checked again  14.20 volts. 

 

Another downside of the 3 amp unregulated system is the tendency to overcharge the battery. Most owners have experienced the battery voltage rising above 16 volts with the unregulated system. We will have to wait and see if the battery voltage climbs to and beyond 15 volts. If it does, the battery is either in need of replacement (has become sulfated with an high internal resistance) or will begin to degrade because of overcharging.

 

You may have read the description from one of the chaps from England regarding the "balancing act" that is present in the design of the unregulated 3 amp system. If you remove the battery or break the connection to the battery, the output of the stator will rise. We just have not had any chance to experiemt with a 3 amp system to tell what the output voltage will rise to with an "unloaded" stator.

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Maybe i did have a ground problem. 

 

The problem disappeared when you replaced a defective ignition switch with no conductivity between the two terminals needed to support the charge function.This makes sense. Not a "ground" issue as there are no "grounds" in or through a coil based ignition switch. The troubleshooting you performed by measuring the resistance between the R and B terminals showed solid evidence of an issue with the charge circuit. I did not see any real measureable evidence of a "ground" issue.

 

Here is an easy method to check the quality of your ground connections.

 

Set a DC voltmeter on the 20 volt range. Place the negative meter probe directly on the battery negative lug - not the negative battery cable terminal but the battery negative lug. Place the positive meter lead on any clean metal on the engine block.  Crank the engine and note the reading on your meter. Any reading less than 0.5 volts indicates ALL the connections from the battery to the engine block are clean and intact.

 

If you see a 12 volt plus reading, you have an OPEN connection in your ground circuit.

 

Any voltage indication between 0.5 and 12 volts indicates some degree of degraded connection in the ground circuit.

 

I intend to create a "voltage drop" troubleshooting tutorial to assist in locating exactly where the bad connection(s) exist. Shotgun methods of troubleshooting involving just unbolting ground cables and polishing the terminals does not assure you have done all you can to eliminate a "bad ground". What if the bad connection is the crimp of the termnal to the groiund wire copper strands? Cleaning the terminals does not resolve the issue. Making a measurement on the voltage drop across the cable will indicate where the issue resides and does away with the shotgun methods that cost money and waste time.

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