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kudzu3

B 80 Transaxle

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I have a B 80 with the 4 spd trans. It will not go into 1st or reverse. I removed the shifter to check, and the front fork is all the way to the right and I tried to gently move it to center (with a long screwdriver) but couldn't. I just got the tractor and am new to this wheel horse thing, so don't know a lot about the mechanics. My question is; do you folks think this is a fixable problem or should I be looking for another transaxle? Thanks for any help.

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:WRS:

 

Probably fixable. You will more than likely get a response from Stevasaurus (and other's) on how to fix it. These are pretty simple trannys, and several of us have parts for repairs. If you are at all mechanical, and have a few simple handtools, taking one apart if necessary is not a big deal.

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Both shift rails have to be in neutral (tabs centered in the hole) before either rail can be shifted into a gear.

 

Service manual

 

Garry

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Garry,  :handgestures-thumbup: thanks for bringing this pdf to forefront, didn't know it was here and needed help in this area also!! 

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The transmission is probably fixable.  What do you know about it's history, ie. been outside, sitting for a long time, etc??  What does the oil look like??  Is the other fork in the center??  Have you driven it at all??  If the other fork is in the center and the front fork is to the right...you should be in reverse.   If you want to start doing things that may make a difference...drain the oil...fill the trans all the way up with diesel fuel (through the shifter hole) and let it set.  Answer the above questions and then we can go from there.

 

BTW...Welcome to Red Square. :)

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Stevasaurus: I do not know the history, but judging from the appearance, the machine has spent some time in the weather. I can drive it in 2nd or 3rd, just no 1st or reverse. When I removed the shifter, it was in neutral and the rear fork was in the center (2nd and 3rd works well). Looking into the shifter port, the interior seemed clean and in good condition. I did drain the fluid and filled with new. What came out was more like muddy water than gear lube, in fact, I drained the engine oil in the same pan and the two wouldn't mix. The shifter has no boot (I need one if anyone has a spare) and I suspect it had a lot of rainwater in there. Checking the trans oil now, after running for about 30 min, it is again rust colored. I had planned to replace the oil again after about 30 more minutes of operation. I will do as you suggest, drain and fill with diesel fuel, but first, I have to remove the trans and drill the shifter set screw out, I somehow broke the danged thing off removing it, if there's an easier way to do it, please let me know. I really appreciate every ones' help here, especially since I am new to this wheel horse thing. :bow-blue:

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If you have already changed the oil...just fill it up with diesel.  Can you drive it as it is??  The fork gears are at the top of the trans and with no boot, that is where the rust is.  The diesel is to loosen those shafts and fork gears...it will do that.  Do not force anything...you may have to drop the trans to fix the set screw anyway........maybe.  Boots are cheap and available from Toro...maybe $5.00.  Those pesky set screws can make it so you have to drop the trans...however...with lubrication and the fenders and seat off...it gives you some room to mess with it...you have to take all that off anyway to drop the trans...little at a time...understand??  This is going to take some time...are you in a hurry to use this horse??  The B-80 is an excellent horse, and if you have the time to do this right...you will have a horse that will last another 40 years.  We have some videos and plenty of pictures and sources for the bearings and seals if needed.  Use the large screw driver to try to shift gears if you can drive it...any weird noises coming from the trans...like bearings popping around, grinding, etc....STOP...HALT...we are tearing it apart.  Not a big deal. :)

 

Try using the large screw driver as your shifter...before you decide to drop the trans.  One thing the diesel does, is to give the trans a good cleaning while driving it around.  It makes tearing it down a much cleaner job.  You are supposed to come to complete stop before shifting gears anyway.  Give the diesel a good chance.

Edited by stevasaurus
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stevasaurus: Okay, I have drained and dropped the trans (easier than I thought) and am in the process of drilling the set screw so I can remove the shifter (gettin' late, I'll finish tomorrow). Yes, I can drive the tractor, everything is good except for the 1st and reverse problem. I am in no hurry to use this horse, so time is not a problem. When I get the set screw out  (that's some hard steel), I will put more lube in and finish filling with diesel (right?), drive it around for a few days and see what happens. I believe that if I can get the front fork back to center and things are loosened up some, it may work. Am I in line with your thinking? How long do you suggest I leave the diesel in? Again, Thanks so much for your help.

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Kudzu3:      Follow the Zen master of trannys!

                   while a different tranny, check out this Stevasaurus  link to see him explain an earlier tranny workings!

    

                           

 

there a couple old post and great photos of you tranny getting taken apart under the Search function

 

oh yeah: :text-welcomeconfetti::wwp:

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Kudzu3...yes, you are thinking along the same lines.  You should not have to run the horse too much to clean everything up...remember...not the right oil in there for those bearings...maybe run it around for about 1 hour.  How ever, leave the fuel in there until that shift fork loosens up.  Gently pry with a screwdriver from time to time...if it starts to free up, then work it back and forth until it moves as easy as the 2nd/3rd fork.  Then drain and replace with fresh 90wt oil.  It will take about 1 1/2 qts.  Does your horse have a dip stick or do you have to do the check plug thingy on the side of the trans?? :)

 

Don...you flatter me... :bow-blue::)

Edited by stevasaurus

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Okay, haven't had time today to work on her, will continue tomorrow. It does not have a dipstick, it's checked at the fill plug. I will advise as soon as possible, Thanks!!!

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Well, looks like I'll be doin' some fixin'. Put the diesel in, drove it around for a while, nothing happened. Let it set for about 30 hours, occasionally trying it out...nothing... same as before, 2nd and 3rd is perfect but it will not shift to 1st or reverse (shifter goes into the fork, but it will not move the fork either way), and right hub is leaking badly :eek: . Guess I'll be either taking her apart or searching for a used one. I don't have a good place to work on it, and don't really know what I'm doing, so I guess I'd rather just get a replacement, if I can find one. Thanks!  Further advice welcome :bow-blue: .

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http://www.mywheelhorse.com/graphics/file/Transmissions/492-4004.pdf

 

I would expect the seals to leak some of the diesel.  The trans is really easy to work on and we will walk you through it if you want to give it a shot.  You should have the 5084 transmission.  The above link is the whole transmission manual...your is in Section IV starting on page 39.  Below, I put in some links to videos I have done to show how they work and go together.  Take a look and see what you think.  The thing is...if you find and buy a used trans, it could be better or worse then what you have.  The seals and most of the bearings are still available, and a few guys on this forum have parts for a good price if you need them.  I would take it apart and at least determine what is wrong.  :eusa-think:  The first video shows the differential...the second is the rest of the trans (including the fork shafts and gears)...just click on the picture to start the video.

 

th_2010_0417trans50850001.jpg

 

th_2010_0417trans50850002.jpg

Edited by stevasaurus

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Okay, you've talked me into it, I already have the manual and have done some studying. It's good to know that some leaking is expected with the diesel, I hope not to have to change those seals. I can't get the videos to work, but will keep trying (I'm not good with computer stuff). I know you're correct about the used trans, "you never know what yer gonna get". I will get started on it early next week. I REALLY APPRECIATE everybodys' help here, now all I need is some confidence. THANKS!

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The videos are working...I just had to click on the picture.  Try this link to photobucket and see if they work for you there.  The seals are easy to change when the trans is apart, and I recommend you change them.  When you split the trans...have the shallow side down...right side.

 

http://s419.photobucket.com/user/stevasaurus/library/5085%20videos?sort=3&page=1

Edited by stevasaurus
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Well, if anyone is wondering, I had to put everything on hold due to some unexpected surgery (nothing serious), so now I am getting started again. I have decided to put the trans on hold for awhile, because I discovered more serious engine issues. I filled the trans (again) with diesel and am letting it "soak" until everything else is finished. The tractor is coming apart in a few days and will undergo a complete restoration. I will have to go into the engine so figured this to be a good time to do everything. This will be my first, and I hope to do the work myself :eek: , so I will probably be seeking advise here in the future. Steve your knowledge and your willingness to share it is greatly appreciated :bow-blue: . If I can figure out how, I hope to post some pictures soon, thanks. OP

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Well...it's time. I will be taking the trans apart within the next few days so here come the questions. First question; As I explained earlier, second and third gears are fine, smooth and quiet but the fork for first and reverse will not move either way, question: when I get into the thing is there a specific thing that I should be looking for that would be causing the problem? Do the forks move on the shaft, or is the fork and shaft on piece and move together? Thanks.

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I have never been into a WH trans,but once you open it up it will all come clear and the problem will jump out at you

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The fork and shaft have a roll pin through them...making it one piece that moves together.  Remember to have the input side of the trans down...the brake shaft side will be the side to take off.  Once you split the trans, you can take out the differential...then the pinion and reduction gears on top of the cluster gear shaft and the spline shaft...then lift the 2nd and 3rd fork shaft (by prying gently with a long screwdriver)...this puts the trans into 2nd gear and makes it easier to lift out the cluster gear and cluster gear shaft....next, lift out the spline shaft out of the fork gears...lift off the reverse idler and the large 11/44 tooth gear.  Now you are looking at the fork gears and shafts...turn the 2nd and 3rd shaft a little so that gear can come off the fork.  Your reverse and 1st shaft is stuck, so you may not be able to turn it a little to remove that gear...it may just be able to slip out the way it is...don't force it...it can stay in place at this point.  If you do not see anything wrong with this gear and fork shaft, you probably just have some rust.  Place this half of the trans in a 5 gal bucket and fill with enough diesel to cover the stuck fork shaft.  Let it soak a couple of days. :)

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I have disassembled the trans (thanks Steve). While attempting to separate the case, had trouble, just couldn't pull the top half off. It was suggested that there could be a burr on the axle shaft  preventing it from separating (thanks Steve). There was a small crack beside the key slot on the axle which caused the metal to swell and had to be taken down. I did this with a strip of sand paper, checking it often with a straight edge (yea, it took a long time). When I got it down, the top half easily came off. Hopefully pictures of this will be forthcoming (thanks Steve). I removed the forks from the case and found that the ball bearings were a little rough and there was a slight ledge in the grooves where the bearings move, effectively locking up the works (I tried but couldn't get a decent picture of this). With patience and sand paper, I removed the ledges and polished the contacting surfaces. Now after partial assembly, everything seems to work perfectly. I will replace the ball bearings with new ones as suggested (thanks Steve). I will be soaking everything for a few days and hope I can get it all back together. Anybody know where I can get seals and gasket? Oh, by the way...THANKS STEVE!! :bow-blue:

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Motion Industries or NAPA has the seals...for your # 5084 transmission.  You have to get the trans gasket from TORO.

 

Axle seals...WH # 100863...cross over to SKF # 9815...need 1 for each axle

Brake shaft and input shaft...WH # 100441...cross over to SKF # 7410...need 1 for each shaft

Gasket for trans halves...WH # 3912...available from TORO...need 1

 

You are more the welcome for the help...very glad to help. :)

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Good work kudzu3, persistance pays off, I'm inspired and more anxious than ever to get into my project transmission. Just have had @#$$ gettin hubs off. Was originally partial locked up and turning back and forth on input shaft spit somethin out that allowed full turning. It's obvious my input has a problem, too much play/wobble.

 

On another note for pictues have you found how to attach using "more reply options" or is it a size prob. You may have to pick the old loader, pick just under where says "attach this file" (trouble uploading? Try basic uploader)

Edited by groundhog47
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Thanks Steve! I guess I should explain. The pics of the axle shaft are an attempt to show the crack beside the key slot. The metal was swollen here and required a little time to get it down so that it would slide out. The pic of the forks is an attempt to show where I had to polish the ball bearing path to remove the burr that was locking everything up. Sorry, I couldn't get a good pic of this. Thanks to every one for the help, I am learning a lot, however, I think it will be a very long time before I can call myself a mechanic :laughing-rofl:.

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Got it all in pieces and clean. There must've been about a cup of mud coating the inside. Lost a set of roller bearings to the pressure washer, yea, I know, that was stupid. I don't know if they can be repaired or not but I'll probably be ordering a new set before it's over, is it possible to put all those rollers back in?. I hope to get it all together with new seals pretty soon, can't do much work lately because of the weather, I'm limited as to what I can do in the basement. Found a shim in the washer pan, anybody know where it goes? I don't see it listed on the parts list or any mention of it on the videos. Hope everyone has a wonderful and safe Christmas and may God bless you all.

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