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mbmatt73

Can't even jump

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Did you charge the battery again? And did you notice if the solenoid was hot after you tried to start it?

There may be more than one thing going on here. The battery may be bad (Does it read about 14.4 volts when fully charged and rested for a while? ) and it still could be that the starter is faulty and drawing too much current as was suggested above.

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I wasn't able to get it to turn over tonight. Not really sure why at this point.....

I think we're nearly there now with two possibilities.

 

The most likely is that the battery needs replacing. It will hold enough charge to start the tractor once when it's just come off a mains charger. If left for a while what little charge remains drains away through a process called 'self-discharge', something all lead acid batteries suffer from but becomes a significant issue with old batteries on their last leg. I suspect by the time you read this you'll have charged it again and found it will start the tractor at least once.

 

The second possibility is that something else is draining the battery when the ignition switch is off.

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Ok so now tell use what you have check and how you checked it. lets start from the begining

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If I saw a solenoid with a melted terminal like the one that was replaced, I would be very carefully inspecting the lug crimped onto the wire for corrosion INSIDE the crimp lug.

 

Even if the crimp lug was not the cause of the overheating, and it was a loose connection at the solenoid at fault, when that heat went into the crimp it could have oxidized that connection as well.

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Tried a brand new battery with the same results.  looks like I'll have to check each wire.

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If you are all wired up, the overall health of the starter circuit can be checked by placing a jumper from the (+) relay post connected to the battery to the TRIGGER terminal of the relay.

 

relaytermidentification_zps91bc2c98.gif

 

 

 

Nocrankquicksystemcheck_zps9cdbf954.gif

 

This action will mimic the function of the start position on the ignition switch. The battery voltage applied to the TRIGGER terminal will engage the contacts within the relay and transfer the battery connection to the starter body. The starter should remain engaged for as long as the TRIGGER terminal is connected to the (+) post of the relay.

 

 

If no starter action is seen when the TRIGGER terminal is energized, a heavy gauge jumper placed directly across the relay top posts will entirely bypass the relay and connect the battery power directly to the starter assembly. The starter show spin as long as you have the jumper wire in place. Please try to limit this test to less than 30 seconds on cranking to keep the starter from overheating.

 

 

nocrank-starterrelaybypass_zps7800cdef.g

 

 

If the starter still fails to spin, you may use battery jumper cables to directly wire the battery to the starter assembly. This step bypasses all the wiring and eliminates any poor electrical connections in the starter system.

 

nocrank-gonogostartercheck_zps33d176f1.g

 

 

 

If the starter will not spin when connected directly to the battery, either the battery is dead or the starter assembly will need to be removed and disassembled for inspection.

 

 

Sorry for chiming in late on this one. I will be home this weekend and can provide you with any additional assistance you require.

 

 

Chuck

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It would also be interesting if you dismantled the relay to see if the internal contacts are fried also

 

 

R86IMG_1132.jpg

 

 

R86IMG_1134.jpg

 

 

R86IMG_1139.jpg

 

 

R86Picture028.jpg

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Chuck,

Could this also be related to the starter not being in great shape?

Mine had the starter rebuilt just before i got it, and I know there was a long time when you had to do the old "whack the starter with the wrench" trick to get it to spin. When I took my relay apart it was not quite as bad as the one in your picture, but there was some definite pitting there.  Is that just wear, or the result of the starter or circuit being bad?

 

dan

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Dan,

 

the pitting seen on my relay pics indicate what I would term "normal wear and tear." 

 

pittingofcontacts.jpg

 

The pitting around the entire perimeter of the copper disk is caused by the disc rotating slightly every time the relay is engaged. Every time the relay engages, a small amount of copper will be vaporized off the disk and stud contacts by the arcing produced by heavy current flow to the starter (similar to how ignition points wear or SG regulator relay points wear).

 

In the case of the relay disassemble for my autopsy, no distortion of the plastic relay case was seen.

 

R86IMG_1124.jpg

 

As I recall, the relay was cleaned with walnut shell blast media to pretty it up for a photo session. No distortion or melting is present on the outer plastic housing. As Jeffpicks pointed out, localized heating spawned by corrosion was present at one of mbmatt's relay terminals. If corrosion were present in the wiring / terminal or within the relay, opening the relay case should reveal heavy discoloration on the copper stud under the melted area of the relay case. If the copper ring and a single copper stud are heavily pitted and discolored, one might think the heating was within the relay case. If the relay internals show "reasonable" wear, the resistance of the wire terminal on the (+) post may be the culprit.

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Tried a brand new battery with the same results.  looks like I'll have to check each wire.

 

Looking back through the thread I'm not certain that you reported back what you found when you opened up the starter itself to inspect the condition of the brushes and the magnets etc. I know you got it to spin off the tractor but what was it like inside?

 

 

Chuck,

Could this also be related to the starter not being in great shape?

Mine had the starter rebuilt just before i got it, and I know there was a long time when you had to do the old "whack the starter with the wrench" trick to get it to spin. When I took my relay apart it was not quite as bad as the one in your picture, but there was some definite pitting there.  Is that just wear, or the result of the starter or circuit being bad?

 

dan

 

Dan, it's never a good idea to 'whack the starter' on these as it very easily can result in a broken magnet which are ceramic and crack or even fragment and jam the strater. PO of a 210 project I have at present did just that and ended up with a jammed starter. You're quite right though about the starter being a possible culpret for the 'cooking' but I don't believe we got feedback on what it was like inside.

 

While on the subject of my 210 project, it was  a very cheap non-runner with good deck and local to me. I didn't need it or really have the time to add it to my project list but at the price worth a punt. PO described it as needing new ignition switch, solenoid and starter motor. The ignition switch checked out ok so I put it back though I have discovered that original switches do deteriorate with age and in worst cases can lead to poor starting. He'd bought a new solenoid for it which was in the box of bits so I fitted that - I haven't checked out the original yet. The starter was seized as a result of being whacked resulting in a broken magnet. This is a budget project so removed all the fragments of magnet and discovered it will still turn the engine ok on three magnets (in summer at least). Finally arrived at why it didn't run in the first place - no spark as a result of faulty ignition module (igniter) leaving me to wonder how it ended up needing the rest of the parts. Still have to make a new carb gasket for it - oh yeah, there were other bits that had been taken off and played with in the PO's attempts to make it run.

 

Andy

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Tried a brand new battery with the same results.  looks like I'll have to check each wire.

Wise move. In addition to all the Cable joints, it will be advisable to also check all the Mechanical Ground joints (bolted parts) on the Starter to Engine and Engine to Ground ( i.e. the Tractor Frame), then the Frame Ground back to -neg side of Battery..... They need to be shiny clean then sealed to keep them moisture proof. 

I still think this is where your problem still lies.  Is this a 12hp Briggs Vertical shaft Engine?. 

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I have some time today and I will review the messages.  Wheeledhorseman mentioned i forgot to show the inside if the starter motor.  I'll attach some images.  The first images should be of the solenoid.  I'll post the starter motor next.

 

n0WAHF9.jpgA3R2e2c.jpg

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Here is the starter motor. I don't know how to get this apart for a better pic.

 

dIEK5Qg.jpg

 

k09EyHk.jpg

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Here is the main wire.  I still can't figure out how to remove the bottom that contains these parts. The starter does spin the engine but I can't get it to kick over.

Z6h2QUf.jpg

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The starter does spin the engine but I can't get it to kick over.

 

Hi Matt,  let's step back here a sec...

 

You say that the starter spins the engine?  Then if I may ask, why are you taking it apart?

 

When you say "...can't get it to kick over..." so you mean that the engine simply won't START?

 

If the starter is spinning the engine, and the engine doesn't start, you should be troubleshooting the 'doesn't start' rather than the starter circuit!

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The starter does spin the engine but I can't get it to kick over.

 

Hi Matt,  let's step back here a sec...

 

You say that the starter spins the engine?  Then if I may ask, why are you taking it apart?

 

When you say "...can't get it to kick over..." so you mean that the engine simply won't START?

 

If the starter is spinning the engine, and the engine doesn't start, you should be troubleshooting the 'doesn't start' rather than the starter circuit!

 

 

Before I replaced the starter solenoid the starter motor wasn't turning or wasn't turning much.  I mentioned I would post pics of it.  In hopes of not missing anything I added pictures.  The starter is turning and turning the engine but the engine won't turn over.

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Before I replaced the starter solenoid the starter wasn't turning or wasn't turning much.

 

And that obviously was because of a loose, corroded, high resistance connection at the solenoid, not a problem with the starter itself.

 

What happened after that then? (too lazy to read back, sorry!)

 

I think you hit 'enter' too soon!  ;)

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I won't interrupt your (Jeffpicks) line of diagnosis, as I see and concur with your direction. I just want to say that the Starter internals look ok and serviceable, although the Commutator segments could benefit from a careful clean up. I've seen much much worse and still work ok. 

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Before I replaced the starter solenoid the starter wasn't turning or wasn't turning much.

 

And that obviously was because of a loose, corroded, high resistance connection at the solenoid, not a problem with the starter itself.

 

What happened after that then? (too lazy to read back, sorry!)

 

I think you hit 'enter' too soon!  ;)

 

Yes, I edited the message. My kids removed buttons from my laptop and It's a bit hard to type.

 

Ok, recap.

I bought the mower used.  Before I bought the mower the seller jumped it (because it didn't have a battery)to let me drive it around. 

I got the mower home, took the battery from another mower and I couldn't get it to start.  After some inspection found the ugly solenoid above.Save Old Iron mentioned, "If corrosion were present in the wiring / terminal or within the relay, opening the relay case should reveal heavy discoloration on the copper stud under the melted area of the relay case. If the copper ring and a single copper stud are heavily pitted and discolored, one might think the heating was within the relay case. If the relay internals show "reasonable" wear, the resistance of the wire terminal on the (+) post may be the culprit."  After reading this again I believe he is saying because of the heavy discoloration inside the solenoid  It was in fact the solenoid and not another wire.

 

From here i'm kinda stuck and was going to review messages to see if i missed any other suggestions.

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I won't interrupt your (Jeffpicks) line of diagnosis, as I see and concur with your direction. I just want to say that the Starter internals look ok and serviceable, although the Commutator segments could benefit from a careful clean up. I've seen much much worse and still work ok. 

I will clean these up.  Thanks for the tip.

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Yes, I edited the message. My kids removed buttons from my laptop and It's a bit hard to type.

 

That makes me laugh   :laughing-rofl:  :laughing-rofl: ....    Bless 'em :angelic-halo:  :angelic-halo:

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The starter is turning and turning the engine but the engine won't turn over.

 

I think we must be using different terms for the same thing...

 

When I say "the engine won't turn over", that means it plain old won't turn, period.  It sound as if you are using the term to mean that it won't START AND RUN, is that correct?

 

Please clarify this because it may mean troubleshooting needs to go down a completely different road.

 

If the starter turns the engine (turns it over) and the engine doesn't start and run, then what should be looked at next is SPARK and FUEL.

 

 

After reading this again I believe he is saying because of the heavy discoloration inside the solenoid  It was in fact the solenoid and not another wire.

 

Not quite sure exactly what Chuck meant, I'll let him clear that up next time he's in...

 

Obviously there was a lot of heat on that one connection.  We can't know if it came from the inside out, or the outside in.

 

Yes, it could have been a bad connection between that one post and the copper disk.

 

BUT, it STILL COULD HAVE been a bad connection on the terminal outside, or between the cable and the lug into which it was crimped.  You should carefully check that crimp lug for oxidized copper... because if that terminal itself got hot enough to melt that plastic, then the lug did as well.

 

It also shows that someone at some point cranked that starter for FAR too long.  One should NEVER crank a starter for more than 10 or 15 seconds and then allow it to cool for a minute before trying again.  Starters and solenoids are designed for very intermittent service.  If the engine doesn't start right away, there's something else wrong.

 

The next time you try to start it, before you do anything else, CAREFULLY!  IT MIGHT BE VERY HOT! check that same lug to see if you can detect excessive heat.  Compare it to the other lug on the solenoid.  They should both be cool enough to touch.  Since you've replaced the solenoid, if you've still got heat, then you have a bad crimp lug on that cable.

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At my 'day job', we routinely test VERY high current DC power supplies.  As much as 1000 AMPS.  We connect these power supplies with BIG cables to a 'load bank' which consists of BIG resistors which act as a 'dummy load' for the power supply.

 

These cables get HOT if left to run for a while, along with the crimp lugs on the ends.

 

On occasion, a crimp lug will get VERY HOT... simply because of oxidized copper INSIDE the crimp lug.  Cutting off the old and crimping on a new and SOLDERING the lug in addition always solves this problem.

 

I strongly suspect that you have a bad crimp lug on the cable that was attached to that melted post.

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Yes, I meant the engine will not start and run.

 

I can start replace the lug.  Would it be better to replace the entire wire or cut half an inch off the end?

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But the point is that even if the connection is still weak, if the starter is turning the engine at a relatively normal speed for starting, if it doesn't start, there's something else wrong.

 

Check and see if the lug is hot after trying to start.

 

If it's NOT then there's no real reason to go after it at this point.

 

You could probably just cut the lug off, strip the wire, CLEAN THE WIRE with emery cloth, and crimp a new lug on, but if you plan to crimp the lug on with pliers... well, that's probably not going to work well, if at all.  Proper crimp connections need to be done with proper tools, and pliers or vice grips are not the proper tool.  You will not get a good crimp if you try...

 

On the other hand, if you can SOLDER the lug on after you have squeezed it with the pliers, then you might have a chance at a good connection.

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