Jump to content
mbmatt73

Can't even jump

Recommended Posts

Keep it simple, I'm new....

 

First off, I absolutely love the wheelhorse tractors and have been reading the forum for some time now.  I just bought a 212-5 as my first of many, I'm sure.  When I picked up the tractor it didn't have a battery but we did jump it (though it took some time).  Once running, it ran pretty good.  Now that I have it home I installed a battery and can't start it.  The battery indicator shows just over 12 and when I turn the key it drops to around 8 with nothing happening.  No noises at all. So I tried to jump it again and the starter motor barely turns or will make a couple of revolutions.  Will the starter motor attempt to turn as mine is if a safety switch is bad or are they bypassed when jumping to the starter motor?    All the videos I see show the starter motor zipping once a jump is applied.  Am I looking too hard in overlooking the starter motor?

 

Thanks,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Check your battery ground connection. Check the starter connection too. Start (pardon the pun) with the basics first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Check your battery ground connection. Check the starter connection too. Start (pardon the pun) with the basics first.

Thanks.  I checked both and sanded the connections,same issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like your battery is dead. They will show 12 volts but have no capacity when under a load. Post the tractor's model and serial number so we can look at a wiring diagram.

 

Garry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  If the unit will not crank over with jumpers from a good battery you may want to try taking a jumper from the good battery directly to the starter; that will take all other components out of the program. If the starter will turn over then move the jumper back one connection to the solinoid outlet and so on until you don't get any cranking, that will tell you what is bad.

 

Hope this helps.

 

:USA:  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

  If the unit will not crank over with jumpers from a good battery you may want to try taking a jumper from the good battery directly to the starter; that will take all other components out of the program. If the starter will turn over then move the jumper back one connection to the solinoid outlet and so on until you don't get any cranking, that will tell you what is bad.

 

Hope this helps.

 

:USA:  

 

Thanks for the response.  I tried to jump with the battery from my pickup truck,directly on the starter motor.  I would get a couple of turns but it wouldn't kick over. Any thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you mean that the starter is not turning rapidly, is that it? Or is the starter turning, but it is not engaging the engine?

 

12v at the battery is a pretty low charge... there is a thread from about two weeks ago about this... my battery shows 13.6 when fully charged, and it is getting a bit tired.

 

If you are applying 12v or more from a running vehicle like your truck ,and the starter motor is not turning. I would take it off and check it out on a bench directly connected to the battery... If it works that way, then the problem is elsewhere, otherwise you can either fix or replace the starter. That said, I have no idea what this machine you have looks like or how to take off the starter (I can tell you it is probably the thing with the big wire attached to it :)  )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When you were jumping the starter off of your truck was the ground cable hooked to the block of the motor? If not give that a try.

 

It could be that the brushes in the starter are getting bad or the springs are bad. If the brushes or springs are bad it isn't too bad a job.

 

Keep us posted

 

:USA: 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you mean that the starter is not turning rapidly, is that it? Or is the starter turning, but it is not engaging the engine?

 

12v at the battery is a pretty low charge... there is a thread from about two weeks ago about this... my battery shows 13.6 when fully charged, and it is getting a bit tired.

 

If you are applying 12v or more from a running vehicle like your truck ,and the starter motor is not turning. I would take it off and check it out on a bench directly connected to the battery... If it works that way, then the problem is elsewhere, otherwise you can either fix or replace the starter. That said, I have no idea what this machine you have looks like or how to take off the starter (I can tell you it is probably the thing with the big wire attached to it :)  )

The starter is not turning, or not turning much.  I did not try  to jump it with my pickup running.  I can give that a shot.

 

 

Also,  the battery readings I gave earlier were rough estimates from the onboard gauge.

 

 

When you were jumping the starter off of your truck was the ground cable hooked to the block of the motor? If not give that a try.

 

It could be that the brushes in the starter are getting bad or the springs are bad. If the brushes or springs are bad it isn't too bad a job.

 

Keep us posted

 

:USA: 

The ground on the truck side was grounded to the pickup truck battery.  On the tractor side it was grounded to the ground wire the tractor battery grounds to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Try the grounding jumper directly to the motor block on the :wh: , that eliminates the grounding cable as a potential problem.

 

:USA: 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I removed the starter motor and tested it by itself- off the battery on my pickup truck.  It spun flawlessly...  Now, where to go... What would cause the starter motor to spin when jumped stand alone but not spin when connected to the engine.  All this feedback is extremly helpfull.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Try the grounding jumper directly to the motor block on the :wh: , that eliminates the grounding cable as a potential problem.

 

:USA: 

I gave this a shot and it didn't change anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I couple of things come to mind.... but I confess I am working this out, not basing it on experience... so like all free advice, remember you get what you pay for :)

 

One is that there is something electrical that is causing poor current to get to the battery. You said it did not spin when you had the positive feed from the truck, and the negative feed from the tractor battery to the frame? I have had lots of failure to start due to bad grounds. However, if you did as was suggested in that test, then you were using the jumper as the ground wire, and this should have worked even if you had a bad connection on the regular ground strap.

 

Second idea is that the battery never puts out enough juice.. as long as you have the starter off, can you get it to spin just as vigorously with the tractor battery as you can with the truck battery? (using the same jumper cables? )

 

Third thing would be something mechanical about the gear and how it engages with the flywheel, but that seems unlikely because it would probably make some horrible noises. However, it might be worth a look when you put the starter back on before you put the blower housing back.

 

Finally, you get into all sorts of much more unpleasant speculation that something is causing the engine to be more difficult to turn than it should. (Not trying to run without oil I hope? trying to start with PTO engaged and have bypassed whatever safeties may have been there? )  Not being familiar with your particular tractor, it is hard to think of anything else... but this is all doomsday speculation.. first make sure it is just not a bad battery.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How long did it sit, you may have had critters build a nest under the engine tins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a run down of the checks I'd make.

 

With the ignition off, try turning the engine by hand using the screen to make sure it's not in the process of seizing up for some reason. There will be some resistance at the top of the compression stroke but other than that it should turn ok.

 

If that's fine then I'd take the tins off so that you can gain access to the starter gear where it runs on the flywheel teeth. Turn the bendix gear on the starter to get it to engage with the flywheel teeth then turn the engine as above. The flywheel will try to turn the starter quite quickly but it should manage it. If it jams then it's just possible that PO swapped out the starter for one with the wrong number or size of teeth. When you have a tractor with uncertain history it's important to check everything.

 

Assuming that's ok then I would say that just because a starter will turn well with no load doesn't necessarily mean it has the torque to turn the engine. As previously mentioned the brushes and springs may need replacing. As it will spin up when off the tractor I think you can discount having a broken magnet in the starter as this makes them seize solid although when you open it up do look for any fragments of magnet stuck to things inside - they need to be removed.

 

Make sure the ignition is off - pull the spark plug lead to be sure as well - don't want it to fire up while doing these tests!

 

Hope this may be of some help.  Andy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I couple of things come to mind.... but I confess I am working this out, not basing it on experience... so like all free advice, remember you get what you pay for :)

I like the free advice.  It's the only type I can afford. :)

 

One is that there is something electrical that is causing poor current to get to the battery. You said it did not spin when you had the positive feed from the truck, and the negative feed from the tractor battery to the frame? I have had lots of failure to start due to bad grounds. However, if you did as was suggested in that test, then you were using the jumper as the ground wire, and this should have worked even if you had a bad connection on the regular ground strap.

 

Second idea is that the battery never puts out enough juice.. as long as you have the starter off, can you get it to spin just as vigorously with the tractor battery as you can with the truck battery? (using the same jumper cables? )

I haven't tried it with just the tractor batter.

 

Third thing would be something mechanical about the gear and how it engages with the flywheel, but that seems unlikely because it would probably make some horrible noises. However, it might be worth a look when you put the starter back on before you put the blower housing back.

The gears appear to be in good shape.

 

Finally, you get into all sorts of much more unpleasant speculation that something is causing the engine to be more difficult to turn than it should. (Not trying to run without oil I hope? trying to start with PTO engaged and have bypassed whatever safeties may have been there? )  Not being familiar with your particular tractor, it is hard to think of anything else... but this is all doomsday speculation.. first make sure it is just not a bad battery.

I'm going to review the safeties tonight, by testing the switches and bypassing if necessary (for now).

 

Thanks again for all the feedback.  It helps me walk through it as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a run down of the checks I'd make.

 

With the ignition off, try turning the engine by hand using the screen to make sure it's not in the process of seizing up for some reason. There will be some resistance at the top of the compression stroke but other than that it should turn ok.

Yes, the engine will turn ok with the little resistance at the top.

 

If that's fine then I'd take the tins off so that you can gain access to the starter gear where it runs on the flywheel teeth. Turn the bendix gear on the starter to get it to engage with the flywheel teeth then turn the engine as above. The flywheel will try to turn the starter quite quickly but it should manage it. If it jams then it's just possible that PO swapped out the starter for one with the wrong number or size of teeth. When you have a tractor with uncertain history it's important to check everything.

Checked, it engages and turns normally.

 

Assuming that's ok then I would say that just because a starter will turn well with no load doesn't necessarily mean it has the torque to turn the engine. As previously mentioned the brushes and springs may need replacing. As it will spin up when off the tractor I think you can discount having a broken magnet in the starter as this makes them seize solid although when you open it up do look for any fragments of magnet stuck to things inside - they need to be removed.

After checking the electrical connections tonight I will open the starter to check the brushes.

 

Make sure the ignition is off - pull the spark plug lead to be sure as well - don't want it to fire up while doing these tests!

 

Hope this may be of some help.  Andy

 

Thanks.  I appreciate all the help.

How long did it sit, you may have had critters build a nest under the engine tins

It was running before I brought it home and idle for maybe a month or two.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Here's a run down of the checks I'd make.

 

With the ignition off, try turning the engine by hand using the screen to make sure it's not in the process of seizing up for some reason. There will be some resistance at the top of the compression stroke but other than that it should turn ok.

Yes, the engine will turn ok with the little resistance at the top.

 

If that's fine then I'd take the tins off so that you can gain access to the starter gear where it runs on the flywheel teeth. Turn the bendix gear on the starter to get it to engage with the flywheel teeth then turn the engine as above. The flywheel will try to turn the starter quite quickly but it should manage it. If it jams then it's just possible that PO swapped out the starter for one with the wrong number or size of teeth. When you have a tractor with uncertain history it's important to check everything.

Checked, it engages and turns normally.

 

Assuming that's ok then I would say that just because a starter will turn well with no load doesn't necessarily mean it has the torque to turn the engine. As previously mentioned the brushes and springs may need replacing. As it will spin up when off the tractor I think you can discount having a broken magnet in the starter as this makes them seize solid although when you open it up do look for any fragments of magnet stuck to things inside - they need to be removed.

After checking the electrical connections tonight I will open the starter to check the brushes.

 

Make sure the ignition is off - pull the spark plug lead to be sure as well - don't want it to fire up while doing these tests!

 

Hope this may be of some help.  Andy

 

Thanks.  I appreciate all the help.

How long did it sit, you may have had critters build a nest under the engine tins

It was running before I brought it home and idle for maybe a month or two.

Ok, so how hard is the motor to turn over by hand?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everything you have described so far could be caused by a bad battery (not holding charge) or a bad ground connection. I would check those first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everything you have described so far could be caused by a bad battery (not holding charge) or a bad ground connection. I would check those first.

 

I started checking all the connections and came across a bad starter solenoid.  Well, it appears to be ruined.  Once I find a new one and replace it I'll proceed with diagnostics.

EjdqFnk.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The solinoid shows its been hot, which could have happened trying to start it with excessive draw, like a bad starter. becareful with the new one not to keep trying to start it if it does the same thing.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't help feeling we're still missing something here. As WH nut says, a cooked solenoid could point to the strater drawing excessive current. Have you opened up the starter yet? I'd certainly want to check it out before using a new solenoid, just to be sure.

 

A visual inspection should tell you a lot about condition - also check for side play in the bearings / bushes - its possible perhaps that the rotor rubs on the magnets when its trying to turn the engine but spins freely when there's no load.

 

We'll get there in the end.

 

Andy

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking at the state of the connections on that solenoid, it does not surprise me it was getting hot. The high resistance would be enough to cook it and leave little current to turn the starter. 

Super clean every connection in the Start/run circuits first and start again before taking things apart. You may as well junk that solenoid though. 

Stick at it , you'll get there.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wanted to thank you all again for all the help and suggestions.  I replaced the solenoid, charged the battery, and  checked connections.  I was able to get it started.  Unfortunately my gas tank flange gave out and I wasn't able to test run the mower.  I picked up a new flange @ Napa this morning and if all goes well I will be mowing tonight.  I'll let you know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wasn't able to get it to turn over tonight. Not really sure why at this point.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×