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JimmyJam

Turn Key... and nothing!!!!

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Some folks find this helpful

 

 

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The safety switches in the diagram could either be a single switch or multiple switches. Multiple switches would be a PTO switch that feeds a clutch switch that leads to the starter relay trigger. If multiple switches exist in series to power the relay, then you must check each switch individually. Each switch must have continuity to allow battery voltage onto the starter relay trigger terminal.

 

Good work so far. You are learning.

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Yes, You nead to check continuity through it, I have a few tractors out here that the ammeter is bypassed or missing . I need to buy a boxlot of them and put them back. As a sidenote try and check continuity or power through it without unhooking it,If you do try to unhook it be carefull that the terminals do not twist as you take off  the wires, If they do its almost certain you will break the internals of the gauge.

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You may also consider taking a jumper wire and jumping over the two terminal studs on the back of the gauge. The ammeter is essentially just a "piece of wire" that uses the magnetic field created by current flow thru it to move a compass-like pointer needle. For the purpose of troubleshooting, consider an ammeter a 1 inch long piece of 10 gauge wire.

 

 

ammgaugelabeled2_zps3df30ce4.jpg

 

 

What can go wrong with a 1 inch long piece of 10 gauge wire with a terminal on each end?

Mostly external problems like corrosion and loose wiring to the terminals. A small tug on the ammeter wire was all that was needed to pull the wire from the blue crimp terminal in the image below.

 

Paint applied to terminals from a "tractor dip" type paint job can also leave insulating layers of paint in the wrong places.

 

 

 

ammeterlooseconn_zps5d507cee.jpg

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Okay...I'm in real quandry now...ammeter tests good for continuity...in fact, there is continuity from the red wire starting on the right side stud through the ammeter and to the end of the light green wire that connects to the ignition switch.

 

There is also continuity from the red wire starting on the solenoid trigger through the clutch safety, through the PTO safety switch and through to the end of the redwire that connects to the ignition switch...I used a bungee cord to keep the clutch engaged...when I pushed the PTO handle down there is no continuity...raise it into starting position and I have continuity.

 

I've checked for contiuity among all the starter ignition switch leads and have continuity as indicated in the manual.

 

Just to be sure after doing all this checked the voltage on the battery..good at about 13V and then jumped the starter solenoid terminals and the starter cranks...jumped to the trigger and the starter cranks...

 

...am I at lost...what do i check next...thanks...ron.



just as an fyi...the seat safety switch has been cut...the connecting seat terminals on the PTO switch have been bent back

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Just to be sure after doing all this checked the voltage on the battery..good at about 13V and then jumped the starter solenoid terminals and the starter cranks...jumped to the trigger and the starter cranks...

Even though you say there's continuity in the starter circuit components and wiring, did you actually test the trigger wire voltage at the solenoid end?

I had a 416 that would barely engage the starter via the tractor wiring but worked fine with a jumper at the trigger terminal of the solenoid.

Turned out to only be about 10VDC (often less) making it to the solenoid due to corrosion, etc.

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Ok, I am going to go in a little deep here.

1st make sure you have a good frame ground where the negative battery cable hooks to tractor.

2nd I have been leading you in a round about manner to get you to understand that since you had no lights or anything the problem almost has to be from the ground up to and including  the switch because that is the only part of the system that is common usage to everything.So it almost has to be ground at frame,bad starter ground.(but it works when jumped) bad ammeter or bad switch and any connection in between. UNLESS you have two problems one in the crank circuit and one in the light circuit

3rd Since this didnt work out as planned I would run a jumper wire from the terminal on the switch to the trigger on the solenoid there bypassing all the safetys if it cranks with key then it is a safety switch open If it doesnt then it is the switch or something from the switch back to the battery ground point.

 

Does that engine set in a craddle on rubber mounts or is it mounted directly to frame? If it is setting on rubber it will need a ground from engine to frame.

Edited by puddlejumper

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okay...so checking the ground means cleaning the connection and the metal service to which the ground connection is well, connected...correct? It is secure...and so just because the starter cranks with the terminals of the solenoid are jumped does not rule out a bad battery ground...right?...because the starter motor is grounded to the frame...hope I got that right.

 

To do number three...i unplug the connector with the five leads from the ignition switch and connect a wire from the S (start) lead of the ignition switch to the solenoid trigger..turn the key...and pray...ok...I'll skip the last part for now...correct?

 

I'm not sure how to check the voltage with the multimeter on the trigger end of the wire...obviously turn the multimeter to a low valtage setting...and one lead on the end of the red wire attached to the solenoid trigger (do i need to disconnect from the solenoid?) and the ground probe on any ground?

 

Pjump...I think you right that the lights and all going dead has to be some kind of indication...and if the ammeter has continuity it should be showing some kinds of life.

 

...let me know on those questions and I'll get started...i'm not giving up!...thanks, ron.

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unplug connector at back of switch and run a wire from the b terminal in the plug to b terminal on back of switch, This hooks your wiring harness from switch to battery back up allowing you to physically  check switch, ammeter and connections in that direction because you will be using them. Then run a wire from S start terminal of the switch to the trigger, This bypasses all the safetys, At this point if it cranks with key you will know switch and everything behind it is OK because it will be part of your circuit and let you know that your problem lays past the switch in the cranking circuit.If it doesn"t then you know the problem lays in the switch or connections from there back through the ammeter to the battery.

  As far as the lights being a indictor, I would have bet the problem is from the battery upto and including the switch because as I stated before the lights do not split off into their own circuit until the switch divides the circuit for the lights, thus being the end of the shared circuit. 

  Your ground should be good because it cranks when you jump the trigger on the solenoid.

  To check voltage at solenoid set multimeter like you do to check battery, black lead to ground and red lead to end of wire at trigger with it unhooked turn key to start and read as if you are checking the battery.

  If it doesnt crank when wired as described above while you have the plug off the back of the switch take the wire that you used for a jumper from b plug and b switch and run it from b plug to trigger on solenoid if it activates solenoid then you know plug is good and wiring from there back to ammetr and battery is good and the switch is bad because you hotwired around it.If it doesnt crank then you know your switch is (probably good) and the problem lies from the plug back to the battery.

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Okay, I think I see where we are heading...question...and this could be a really stoopid one...on what side of the solenoid should the red wire that feeds into the ammeter and then light green wire and then into the B terminal of the ignition switch be mounted? the left side or the right side with the solenoid mounted on the tractor?

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Wow, you lost me there, Leave everything like it was when you got it, No reason to permanately remount any wires. Just pull plug from back of switch and temporarily plug in 2 scrap pieces of wire one from plug to switch to rehook power to b terminal and one from s terminal on back of switch to trigger on solenoid just like you were jumping from battery to solenoid to test.

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Ok I think it came to me what your asking, It doesnt matter, as long as its hooked to the same side as the positive battery cable, which if you hooked it to the side that goes to your starter when you replaced solenoid that is what is causing your problems.

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In the words of Homer Simpson..."DUHHH!"

 

...she turns over...lights still don't work but I guess I have gotten alot of practice troubleshooting circuits so no fear...lol.

 

Thanks Pjumper and old Iron and the gentlemen who started this post.  I label things as i take them apart and tie stuff off but obviously got this one backwards somehow.  It also helps when I finally started to understand how the ignition system actually works...last night I just lying in bed going over the circuit in my head when I realized my mistake....like, ok, where does the power to the ignition switch come...trace back, trace back and wait that side of the solenoid can't get power until the solenoid is closed!...and again "duh."  Checked the wiring diagram...sent PJump a note and there she blows...finally.

 

I'm going to run a new fuel line and have already already cleaned the carbs and rebuilt the air cleaner assembly...check the flywheel...and maybe on it's way to running soon...and now I can order those new front tires....thanks again!

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Well, I should have come to that first, everything was working until you changed starter, solenoid, and I think you said regulator. I started with something you could have done,(pulled loose a wore or broke a wire) Instead of starting with something I knew you had done. BUT, Look at all the expierence we got! :ychain:

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... "I could have found that in 10 minutes if I had know all this stuff."

 

. 90% of fixing a problem is identifying the issue, replacing the part takes the remaining 10%.

 

 

Told ya so!!!

 

Good job you two. The joys of long distance fixing. Getting two folks to sync up in thought process is always the most fun part.

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Scary what can be accomplished...it's funny I thought I about your quote when I switching the wire over...I'm thinking even more like two minutes.

 

Learning to slow down is hard for me and this kind of work helps...I didn't end up with a pile of safety and ignitions switches on my shelf...typically I'd just order stuff if it wasn't too expensive and assume that was the problem...much better this way :)  thanks all.

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Scary what can be accomplished...it's funny I thought I about your quote when I switching the wire over...I'm thinking even more like two minutes.

 

Learning to slow down is hard for me and this kind of work helps..

 

 

I hear that !

 

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