r/r 2540305 Kohler 26hp Charging!

[TheGreenMachine 1]

Howdy all! I have a similar problem to 'Wheel-N-It'

The r/r is grounded to the chassis, (I tested the r/r on a Kohler CH20 and it worked) , I have just glued the magnets in as per Save Old Iron's good diagrams and advice (used Loctite 620 to bond). My r/r shows no voltage at all at high revs but probably because the stator shows only between 10 and 25VAC which is not enough. I have checked the stator (0.2 Ohms - no shorts to ground through the wires). Does the regulator B+ terminal have to be connected to the battery for it to 'turn-on' the r/r? As I am just testing and have not done this. I am starting to think that the second hand flywheel I bought to replace missing/broken magnets was off a lesser power engine (maybe the magnetic flux is much lower)!?

NOW I AM STUMPED! I would seriously love any input you guys may be able to throw to me - would be much appreciated!

[Wheel-N-It 2,967]

YES the B+ terminal must be connected to the pos+ side of the battery. This prompts the regulator to produce DC voltage. Do this and check back in with your findings.

Van

p.s. I have a good friend in Sydney, and also PM regularly with an Aussie guy who is a member of a Cub Cadet forum that I am also a member of. Its good to know that down under you have some of the best LAGTs ever made.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

Does the regulator B+ terminal have to be connected to the battery for it to 'turn-on' the r/r? I am starting to think that the second hand flywheel I bought to replace missing/broken magnets was off a lesser power engine (maybe the magnetic flux is much lower)!?

A simple test for the connection exisiting between the battery and the B+ of the regulator is to measure the B+ terminal with the engine off and the ignition switch in RUN. The battery voltage should be on the B+ terminal.

I have never measured the actual mag flux of the magnets but I would assume a fair comparison could be made by how strongly a screwdriver blade is attracted to each magnet segment - approximate equal attraction should mean equal flux ratings of the mag segments.

One other item to consider is the stator itself. A single segment or mu;tiple segments could be shorted and keeping the entire stator from reaching full potential. Consider the stator like a flashlight with 18 batteries wired in series. If a few of the batteries are dead out of the 18, the overall output of the series connected cells are diminished accordingly. Each segment contibutes about 2 volts to the overall AC output of the stator. So 18 x 2 = 36 VAC from the stator at full engine speed.

Resistance checks are futile due to the low resistance of each individual segment. If the overall resistance is only 0.2 ohms, then each segment will only contribute 0.01 ohms !!

You will not get your ohmmeter to resolve that difference if 2 or 3 segments are shorted out.

Visually check the stator windings for discoloration (darker brown coating) on the segment wires. Of course, bare copper on any windings may also short out that particular segment.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

As for the notion the battery must be connected to B+ for the regulator to work - I keep wondering, if that is true, why the K series (once started) will run without the battery connected ??? Without a battery connected, the only power source for the ignition coil is the output of the stator, and that comes thru the regulator. ???

[Wheel-N-It 2,967]

As for the notion the battery must be connected to B+ for the regulator to work - I keep wondering, if that is true, why the K series (once started) will run without the battery connected ??? Without a battery connected, the only power source for the ignition coil is the output of the stator, and that comes thru the regulator. ???

SOI, in my case the KT-17 motor would run because 12vdc was making its way to the coil via the ignnition switch. And yes my ignition switch was defective, but only on the set of contacts that put 12v to the regulator. All other contacts in the switch would make. The ignition system was running "total loss" so when the battery voltage got low, the engine would not run properly.

[Wheel-N-It 2,967]

Green Machine, I can't help but think you may have two magnets out of place, polarity wise. The magnets have to sit in the flywheel like this; A north/south/north magnet sits next to a south/north/south magnet, then a north/south/north, then a south/north/south magnet, and follow suite just like this all around your flywheel. I recommend you pull your flywheel off again and use a screwdriver or other metallic object to check the magnets so either you know for sure each magnet is in the proper order, or you find two out of place.

Van

Actually I used a magnetic screw retriever tool so I would have magnetic attraction to one pole and the other (or like poles) would repel against each other. This made it real easy to check for the magnets being in the proper order. I recommend you use this method over a screwdriver.

[TheGreenMachine 1]

YES the B+ terminal must be connected to the pos+ side of the battery. This prompts the regulator to produce DC voltage. Do this and check back in with your findings.

Van

Too right Van that once I connected battery voltage to B+ it actually started to regulate! But only after I sourced the stator and flywheel which were still in tact and operational. This quite surprised me that it need the battery voltage or 'some amount of volts' to start to regulate. Tricky things!

[TheGreenMachine 1]

As for the notion the battery must be connected to B+ for the regulator to work - I keep wondering, if that is true, why the K series (once started) will run without the battery connected ??? Without a battery connected, the only power source for the ignition coil is the output of the stator, and that comes thru the regulator. ???

Totally understand that and ponder that myself. I've had engines that run but then it seems the Kohler will not I need to consider that a little more! I think the engines I've had which run without the battery have had the ignition switch wired to the battery+ connector on the starter motor, the B+ from r/r of course wired to that... Reliable should you have battery starting issues or flat batteries!

[TheGreenMachine 1]

After thinking about SOI's stator warning issues I decided to check the stator from a functional CH20s machine - While having the flywheel off I of course decided to look at these magnets that were perfectly intact. The comparison between magnets which I had glued in for the 26hp and those on the CH20s's were well not quite the same and I've found an interesting magnetic characteristic on these magnets I assume may have contributed to my low stator AC voltages! I will photograph and post for your amusement shortly! Amusement may not be...

[Wheel-N-It 2,967]

Looking forward to your report GM

Van

[TheGreenMachine 1]

It seems each magnet is made up of six alternating segments!

As you can see on the second magnet the pole has actually migrated on the magnet (when you look at where the compass is precisely pointing)! I presume there was a problem in the manufacturing as I have another 8 magnets lying around which exhibit exactly that! So not a one off situation, otherwise could have been out of an overheating engine is all I can guess has happened (high temperatures will 'reset' magnetic orientation).

Birds migrate to the poles and poles migrate on magnets!? No wonder my first attempt didn't charge?

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

Assuming today is not the equivalent of Austrailian Aprils Fools Day, this is just too interesting to pass up - sextupular shenanigans !!! - I'll have to head out the auto parts store and pickup a cheap compass to see how well I can mimic your findings with a known good set of magnets.

Ultimately you want to end up with 6 magnets - 3 with a SNS configuration and 3 with a NSN configuration AS SEEN FROM THE INNER FACE of the magnets. I will be interested to see if the "good" magnets I have show the same face to backside change in polarity too!!

[TheGreenMachine 1]

Do you reckon the magnets are defective such as the last few pics? They couldn't work could they?

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

My first guess is the magnets are probably OK. The compass needle aligns with the magnetic lines of force that surround the magnet. The magnetic lines are not "focused" to only one side of the magnet. A compass will align with mag lines present on both the front and back surfaces of the magnets.

In your pictures, I see the size of the compass in relation to the magnet s probably causing some misinterpretation of the readings. It's like trying to measure millimeters with a meter stick. The tool is too large to align with small variations on the magnetic field.

The magnets used in the stator are created to have 3 distinct poles. Each magnet segment is like having 2 separate magnets joined together. Same poles at the ends and an opposite pole in the middle. Three segments will be NSN and three segments will be SNS.

So,

if you could find a compass much smaller in relation to the magnet segment, you would see the compass pointer follow the mag lines more closely. Something like this on a SNS magnet.

All assembled in the proper order, the result is

[Wheel-N-It 2,967]

GM, once again, use a magnetic retriever tool. If possible buy one that you can angle 90degrees at the magnetic end. You will easily be able to tell which pole is which, and where each pole is on each magnet. I do like and appreciate your efforts with a compass. That was a very good idea and effort.

[TheGreenMachine 1]

I see what your getting at regarding a smaller compass but I think all in all the one I have shows the main poles quite accurately enough. If you take it one step further you will see that the magnet is divided into six segments when taking into consideration about the rear side of the magnet (the photo's indicate this) and as you quite rightly pointed out it is the inner side which is of importance to the charging system. I just thought you guys would find it interesting.

I am very fluent with magnet orientations, placement and gluing, what my problem now is removing the magnets and after heating mildly, soaking in high power thinners and trying everything under the sun I am sourcing suppliers as I already have a custom made flywheel, so buying a complete one is not viable, buying a complete one just for the magnets, not viable because I cannot take the magnets off it! Goodness!

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

GM,

an interesting discovery indeed. I had not considered the magnet segments to be aligned as you have shown in your drawing. I considered them to be somewhat a "bent" bar magnet. I would love to know how they are created. As for an alternate source of the magnets, I wonder if standard rare earth button magnets, glued in alternating polarities inside a flywheel would have the same ability to excite a stator assembly. I would imagine individual magnets grouped in 3's with alternating poles facing the stator may indeed work in your custom flywheel. Of course clearances to the stator segments and final dynamic balance of the entire flywheel assembly would be a major considerations.

[TheGreenMachine 1]

Great thought! Definitely worth investigation, I will speak to a magnet where-house tomorrow about exactly that possibility and report back.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

this might be of some interest to you also

http://www.emovendo.net/magnets/viewer-film-filings/

http://www.lessemf.com/dcgauss.html

especially the magnetic field viewer gel

also interesting

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/tripole.htm

[Wheel-N-It 2,967]

Sorry guys, I seemed to have missed a couple of Green Machines post, and jumped in with my last post that added nothing of value to this conversation. Very embarrassing indeed.

[Save Old Iron 1,563]

No apologies needed - the reminder about the retriever tool is very valid. We are all in a state of discovery at this point. A little mental "off roading" on the topic can lead to very interesting discoveries, ideas and (hopefully) solutions. :eusa-think: