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Seat safety switch

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does the smoke smell like oil ? what does it smell like if not oil ? could a mouse or something have crawled into the muffler causing the white smoke ?

eric

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You didn't happen to grab the gas can thats mixed with oil for a weed eater or chain saw or something like that did you? If you're like me I have 3-4 gas cans for different tools. Just a thought! Maybe drain the gas all out and put in new.

Good thought but nope....I keep the mower gas in a 3 gal. container and the oiled gas for the weedeater is in a 1 gal thing. I've almost done that in the past so to eliminate that possibility I bought a great big container for the mower. that way there is no mistake. Thanks tho....I really do appreciate the responses. I 'ain't' thru yet tho. Gonna look at the switch schematics and try the carb cleaner for the smoke. It may eventually work out that I have to take the thing to a shop I always use for weird stuff. They are really excellent and sometimes the cost is zero when something simple is fixed. So, I don't have to worry about being taken for a ride. I usually don't resort to something like that unless I just simply cannot figure it out or don't want to mess with it.

I recently got a 16hp tractor that had some smoke, but mosty on start up. I changed the oil and that thing smoke like a freight train no matter how long I ran it. So playing around I wanted to see where the throttle and idle/fuel settings were at on the carb since it really runs and idles so perfect. I turned both screws all the way down till they stopped, counting my turns as I went, and then ran them back up where they was, (which was real close to factory settings). I started the engine up and the smoke went away. I have less on start up now too.

I'll try that and see if it works. Have to count the turns tho b/c its not a good thing to get too far away from where it was when I started. Thanks.

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does the smoke smell like oil ? what does it smell like if not oil ? could a mouse or something have crawled into the muffler causing the white smoke ?

eric

Actually it smells like following one of those city buses where there are a lot of exhaust fumes but those are black and this is white and gushing out of the exhaust pipe. I don't think a mouse would smell like that. It starts almost as soon as the tractor does and isn't hot enough at that point to cause something to burn, like fried mouse. ha ha Thank you

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No mouse...you would smell death. LOL , but if there was you probably wouldn't get white smoke and it would plug the exhaust.

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No mouse...you would smell death. LOL , but if there was you probably wouldn't get white smoke and it would plug the exhaust.

ASAP I'm gonna do the adjust the carburetor thing. That may work. The air filter I changed out had not been changed in years and was utterly plugged up, the pre-filter foam one. I haven't used the mower except for a couple of times since I bought it and the person before me had probably never changed it. That person may have kept adjusting the screws on the thing to compensate for the clogged air filter, making the mix leaner and leaner and now with a new filter, it may be out of kilter. Does that sound about right. Need to make it leaner. But, that leaves the stupid switch problem and eventually it will be worked out. I originally bought the mower and it ran well and did a great job until just the other day. But I had originally bought it to remove the deck and just use it for pulling around little wagons of top soil rather than doing it with a wheel barrow. Done that, hated that.

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No mouse...you would smell death. LOL , but if there was you probably wouldn't get white smoke and it would plug the exhaust.

ASAP I'm gonna do the adjust the carburetor thing. That may work. The air filter I changed out had not been changed in years and was utterly plugged up, the pre-filter foam one. I haven't used the mower except for a couple of times since I bought it and the person before me had probably never changed it. That person may have kept adjusting the screws on the thing to compensate for the clogged air filter, making the mix leaner and leaner and now with a new filter, it may be out of kilter. Does that sound about right. Need to make it leaner. But, that leaves the stupid switch problem and eventually it will be worked out. I originally bought the mower and it ran well and did a great job until just the other day. But I had originally bought it to remove the deck and just use it for pulling around little wagons of top soil rather than doing it with a wheel barrow. Done that, hated that.

Thats exactly the same way my air filter was when I got my tractor. Plus the foam wrap was so brittle it fell apart in my hands when trying to take it off. I put new one on and rode it around for a while getting the engine oil hot then changed the oil and thats when mine started smoking. I want to take the carb off and clean it out but seems to be ok for now.

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No mouse...you would smell death. LOL , but if there was you probably wouldn't get white smoke and it would plug the exhaust.

ASAP I'm gonna do the adjust the carburetor thing. That may work. The air filter I changed out had not been changed in years and was utterly plugged up, the pre-filter foam one. I haven't used the mower except for a couple of times since I bought it and the person before me had probably never changed it. That person may have kept adjusting the screws on the thing to compensate for the clogged air filter, making the mix leaner and leaner and now with a new filter, it may be out of kilter. Does that sound about right. Need to make it leaner. But, that leaves the stupid switch problem and eventually it will be worked out. I originally bought the mower and it ran well and did a great job until just the other day. But I had originally bought it to remove the deck and just use it for pulling around little wagons of top soil rather than doing it with a wheel barrow. Done that, hated that.

Thats exactly the same way my air filter was when I got my tractor. Plus the foam wrap was so brittle it fell apart in my hands when trying to take it off. I put new one on and rode it around for a while getting the engine oil hot then changed the oil and thats when mine started smoking. I want to take the carb off and clean it out but seems to be ok for now.

Thanks. Yes, mine was super dirty and sort of compressed in places where it had pressed against something or other. The compressed areas of course were not getting any air at all. I plan on doing a carb fiddling thing tomorrow. As for the PTO problem.....well, that is another story. I wonder if a little volt meter would be able to analyze anything. I have one but have not used it enough to know what i'm looking for.

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If you have a compressor you might take and blow out all your electrical connections to clean up then trace your lead wire down that feeds the PTO switch and make sure its good and making proper connection. I like using a plain simple test light to trace with, then you can use a voltage tester to check what their reading. That manual you down loaded last night has some basic how to with a tester in the first part of it.

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If you have a compressor you might take and blow out all your electrical connections to clean up then trace your lead wire down that feeds the PTO switch and make sure its good and making proper connection. I like using a plain simple test light to trace with, then you can use a voltage tester to check what their reading. That manual you down loaded last night has some basic how to with a tester in the first part of it.

good point. thanks!!! The owner's/operator's manual also has some excellent wiring schematics.

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headlessdad-1.gif

Love that photo. Funnnny. I have a relatively new battery and it turns over like a champ. I found a couple of tiny places on one of the wires that goes to a headlight that had a few little chew marks on it from a mouse or rat so I taped them with elec. tape. I am going to explore farther and then, tomorrow I am going to the carb adjustments for lean/rich adjustments to cut down on the white smoke. The problem of the engine dying when slowly engaging the PTO lever still persists. I took a look at the site you referred me to and will take the time to get into that later. If I am not able to correct the PTO problem, i will load the machine up and take it to the person who always works on my machinery and who is the best I know of around here. Thanks for the info and I'll take a look at the SOI site,

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The problem of the engine dying when slowly engaging the PTO lever still persists.

We had a conversation on the "old" Red Square site about this same issue. As I remember, there was debate as to if it was a mechanical issue bogging the engine or an electrical issue just shutting down the ignition circuit. In your instance, and in my opinion, the white smoke is the show stopper here. It is the most significant issue you currently have on the tractor and you probably should not consider mowing with it until your "bug fogger" turns back into a tractor once again.

So here is what I remember as the highlights from that discussion (maybe someone can point that post or even the owner of that tractor could chime in - for the life of me I can not remember how that one was resolved).

Eliminate the mechanical part of the argument by disconnecting any belts from the PTO bell. Make sure the PTO bell spins freely when the PTO lever is not engaged. Restart the engine and engage the PTO lever. With nothing to MECHANICALLY bog the engine down, the engine should continue to run. If the engine dies, I would say the issue is the ignition system being shut down. I'll take a look at the schematics for your particular tractor and get back to you later this morning. If you have the opportunity, I would have you disconnect the kill wire from the magneto, run the engine, engage he PTO and see if the engine stills runs. Yes? Then reconnect the kill wire to kill the engine. Attach the mower belt back to the PTO bell, remove the kill wire, restart the engine and engage the PTO. Still running? Yes ? Then we have a safety switch / wiring issue.

I'll post later regarding additional checks.

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SOI,

I believe this is the thread you were referring to. The tractor was a 1979 C-121, and the issues weren't totally resolved. Apparently oldtin was also running through mower drive belts at an alarming rate, and there haven't been any posts there since last July. I'll bump it to see if anybody knows more:

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The problem of the engine dying when slowly engaging the PTO lever still persists.

We had a conversation on the "old" Red Square site about this same issue. As I remember, there was debate as to if it was a mechanical issue bogging the engine or an electrical issue just shutting down the ignition circuit. In your instance, and in my opinion, the white smoke is the show stopper here. It is the most significant issue you currently have on the tractor and you probably should not consider mowing with it until your "bug fogger" turns back into a tractor once again.

So here is what I remember as the highlights from that discussion (maybe someone can point that post or even the owner of that tractor could chime in - for the life of me I can not remember how that one was resolved).

Eliminate the mechanical part of the argument by disconnecting any belts from the PTO bell. Make sure the PTO bell spins freely when the PTO lever is not engaged. Restart the engine and engage the PTO lever. With nothing to MECHANICALLY bog the engine down, the engine should continue to run. If the engine dies, I would say the issue is the ignition system being shut down. I'll take a look at the schematics for your particular tractor and get back to you later this morning. If you have the opportunity, I would have you disconnect the kill wire from the magneto, run the engine, engage he PTO and see if the engine stills runs. Yes? Then reconnect the kill wire to kill the engine. Attach the mower belt back to the PTO bell, remove the kill wire, restart the engine and engage the PTO. Still running? Yes ? Then we have a safety switch / wiring issue.

I'll post later regarding additional checks.

Got out the manuals today and tried to see how to get the belt off the PTO bell...no help. Those old manuals just do not cut it at all when it comes to thing like that but will go to the internet where I think I can find out the info. I wonder if I have to drop the mower deck to loosen the belt enough to give the belt enough slack.

Thanks

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You do not need to drop the mower deck -

Turn the knob on the mule drive to loosen it up then pull the pin on the PTO and swing the arm out of the way. Belt should come right off.

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You do not need to drop the mower deck -

Turn the knob on the mule drive to loosen it up then pull the pin on the PTO and swing the arm out of the way. Belt should come right off.

That's its too! Just what I like about these tractors. :icecream:

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Just recently I had a similar issue on my 416-H. While mowing the tractor started to lose power, the engine would cut in and out, and if I released the PTO, everything was fine. At first I thought it was a carburator issue, but after fiddling a bit it occured to me that it was happening when I turned the tractor at the end of the row. What was happening was I was "Leaning" in the seat during the turn, causing a gap between the seat switch and the metal plunger on the seat frame. The tip of the seat switch had worn away, increasing the distance between the top of the switch and the plunger. I found a small screw that would fit inside the switch tube ahd epoxied it in there to give the switch a bit more travel and problem is solved.

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I think you have two seperate problems that are not connected. For the seat switch I think if you remove the connector from the seat switch and install a jumper wire in the connector it will fix the issue for the time being until you can get a new seat switch.

The white smoke?? Not sure, but someone here will.

Mike.............

Thank you for your information. I did try that and it made no difference. While I sit on the mower and with it running, the little red seat switch light on the panel remains on with the little wire jumper in place. I can raise off the seat and the mower continues to run. I removed the belt from the PTO and with the mower running once again, I eased the PTO lever forward to engage the blades and the mower dies if I move it all the way whether I am sitting on the sear or not.

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Just recently I had a similar issue on my 416-H. While mowing the tractor started to lose power, the engine would cut in and out, and if I released the PTO, everything was fine. At first I thought it was a carburator issue, but after fiddling a bit it occured to me that it was happening when I turned the tractor at the end of the row. What was happening was I was "Leaning" in the seat during the turn, causing a gap between the seat switch and the metal plunger on the seat frame. The tip of the seat switch had worn away, increasing the distance between the top of the switch and the plunger. I found a small screw that would fit inside the switch tube ahd epoxied it in there to give the switch a bit more travel and problem is solved.

That is an interesting problem and a good solution. Things do wear out eventually and it calls for unique solutions. I disconnected the seat switch plug and installed a small jumper wire in the plug and the seat switch light on the panel stays on. And with or without the jumper wire, the mower will continue to run if I am sitting or standing up. And the problem of the mower dying when I ease the PTO engaging lever forward, I disconnected the PTO belt from the PTO. Easing the lever forward still kills the mower.

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The problem of the engine dying when slowly engaging the PTO lever still persists.

We had a conversation on the "old" Red Square site about this same issue. As I remember, there was debate as to if it was a mechanical issue bogging the engine or an electrical issue just shutting down the ignition circuit. In your instance, and in my opinion, the white smoke is the show stopper here. It is the most significant issue you currently have on the tractor and you probably should not consider mowing with it until your "bug fogger" turns back into a tractor once again.

So here is what I remember as the highlights from that discussion (maybe someone can point that post or even the owner of that tractor could chime in - for the life of me I can not remember how that one was resolved).

Eliminate the mechanical part of the argument by disconnecting any belts from the PTO bell. Make sure the PTO bell spins freely when the PTO lever is not engaged. Restart the engine and engage the PTO lever. With nothing to MECHANICALLY bog the engine down, the engine should continue to run. If the engine dies, I would say the issue is the ignition system being shut down. I'll take a look at the schematics for your particular tractor and get back to you later this morning. If you have the opportunity, I would have you disconnect the kill wire from the magneto, run the engine, engage he PTO and see if the engine stills runs. Yes? Then reconnect the kill wire to kill the engine. Attach the mower belt back to the PTO bell, remove the kill wire, restart the engine and engage the PTO. Still running? Yes ? Then we have a safety switch / wiring issue.

I'll post later regarding additional checks.

Got out the manuals today and tried to see how to get the belt off the PTO bell...no help. Those old manuals just do not cut it at all when it comes to thing like that but will go to the internet where I think I can find out the info. I wonder if I have to drop the mower deck to loosen the belt enough to give the belt enough slack.

Thanks

I had never had to fiddle with the PTO belt and you're perfectly right, I loosened the belt, removed it from the PTO pulley and started the machine, eased the PTO lever forward...mower died.

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The problem of the engine dying when slowly engaging the PTO lever still persists.
We had a conversation on the "old" Red Square site about this same issue. As I remember, there was debate as to if it was a mechanical issue bogging the engine or an electrical issue just shutting down the ignition circuit. In your instance, and in my opinion, the white smoke is the show stopper here. It is the most significant issue you currently have on the tractor and you probably should not consider mowing with it until your "bug fogger" turns back into a tractor once again. So here is what I remember as the highlights from that discussion (maybe someone can point that post or even the owner of that tractor could chime in - for the life of me I can not remember how that one was resolved). Eliminate the mechanical part of the argument by disconnecting any belts from the PTO bell. Make sure the PTO bell spins freely when the PTO lever is not engaged. Restart the engine and engage the PTO lever. With nothing to MECHANICALLY bog the engine down, the engine should continue to run. If the engine dies, I would say the issue is the ignition system being shut down. I'll take a look at the schematics for your particular tractor and get back to you later this morning. If you have the opportunity, I would have you disconnect the kill wire from the magneto, run the engine, engage he PTO and see if the engine stills runs. Yes? Then reconnect the kill wire to kill the engine. Attach the mower belt back to the PTO bell, remove the kill wire, restart the engine and engage the PTO. Still running? Yes ? Then we have a safety switch / wiring issue. I'll post later regarding additional checks.
Got out the manuals today and tried to see how to get the belt off the PTO bell...no help. Those old manuals just do not cut it at all when it comes to thing like that but will go to the internet where I think I can find out the info. I wonder if I have to drop the mower deck to loosen the belt enough to give the belt enough slack. Thanks
I had never had to fiddle with the PTO belt and you're perfectly right, I loosened the belt, removed it from the PTO pulley and started the machine, eased the PTO lever forward...mower died.
OH....the magneto...not sure about what that is. I have the manuals and none of them show a picture of that. So, I took a couple of photos...maybe you can tell.Well, I took them but for some reason, the site is not letting me browse to my pictures and put them on here for ou to see. I "think" I know which picture shows the magneto.

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magnetoterminalidentification.gif

magneto is located at the 12 o'clock position on top of the flywheel. The kill wire is (usually) a white wire attached the "kill terminal" on the above image.

Operation is simple. If the kill wire is NOT connecte to ground - mag can produce spark and engine runs

If the kill wire is grounded, mag cannot produce spark and engine will not run.

If you apply 12 volts to the kill terminal, the magneto will burn up - literally- smoke and all - and the mag will need to be replaced. This is never a good option - head the above warning outlined in red.

trac017_rs640.jpg

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The problem of the engine dying when slowly engaging the PTO lever still persists.

We had a conversation on the "old" Red Square site about this same issue. As I remember, there was debate as to if it was a mechanical issue bogging the engine or an electrical issue just shutting down the ignition circuit. In your instance, and in my opinion, the white smoke is the show stopper here. It is the most significant issue you currently have on the tractor and you probably should not consider mowing with it until your "bug fogger" turns back into a tractor once again.

So here is what I remember as the highlights from that discussion (maybe someone can point that post or even the owner of that tractor could chime in - for the life of me I can not remember how that one was resolved).

Eliminate the mechanical part of the argument by disconnecting any belts from the PTO bell. Make sure the PTO bell spins freely when the PTO lever is not engaged. Restart the engine and engage the PTO lever. With nothing to MECHANICALLY bog the engine down, the engine should continue to run. If the engine dies, I would say the issue is the ignition system being shut down. I'll take a look at the schematics for your particular tractor and get back to you later this morning. If you have the opportunity, I would have you disconnect the kill wire from the magneto, run the engine, engage he PTO and see if the engine stills runs. Yes? Then reconnect the kill wire to kill the engine. Attach the mower belt back to the PTO bell, remove the kill wire, restart the engine and engage the PTO. Still running? Yes ? Then we have a safety switch / wiring issue.

I'll post later regarding additional checks.

Got out the manuals today and tried to see how to get the belt off the PTO bell...no help. Those old manuals just do not cut it at all when it comes to thing like that but will go to the internet where I think I can find out the info. I wonder if I have to drop the mower deck to loosen the belt enough to give the belt enough slack.

Thanks

post-6868-0-84417100-1336310577.jpg

post-6868-0-47669000-1336310599.jpg

post-6868-0-11257500-1336310613.jpg

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The problem of the engine dying when slowly engaging the PTO lever still persists.

We had a conversation on the "old" Red Square site about this same issue. As I remember, there was debate as to if it was a mechanical issue bogging the engine or an electrical issue just shutting down the ignition circuit. In your instance, and in my opinion, the white smoke is the show stopper here. It is the most significant issue you currently have on the tractor and you probably should not consider mowing with it until your "bug fogger" turns back into a tractor once again.

So here is what I remember as the highlights from that discussion (maybe someone can point that post or even the owner of that tractor could chime in - for the life of me I can not remember how that one was resolved).

Eliminate the mechanical part of the argument by disconnecting any belts from the PTO bell. Make sure the PTO bell spins freely when the PTO lever is not engaged. Restart the engine and engage the PTO lever. With nothing to MECHANICALLY bog the engine down, the engine should continue to run. If the engine dies, I would say the issue is the ignition system being shut down. I'll take a look at the schematics for your particular tractor and get back to you later this morning. If you have the opportunity, I would have you disconnect the kill wire from the magneto, run the engine, engage he PTO and see if the engine stills runs. Yes? Then reconnect the kill wire to kill the engine. Attach the mower belt back to the PTO bell, remove the kill wire, restart the engine and engage the PTO. Still running? Yes ? Then we have a safety switch / wiring issue.

I'll post later regarding additional checks.

Got out the manuals today and tried to see how to get the belt off the PTO bell...no help. Those old manuals just do not cut it at all when it comes to thing like that but will go to the internet where I think I can find out the info. I wonder if I have to drop the mower deck to loosen the belt enough to give the belt enough slack.

Thanks

The center photo is the heavy wire connecting what I believe is the magneto to the starter. The left photo is what I think the magneto is. The right photo is the dash board with the various gauges and the vertical row of little lights. The two that are lit up are the Seat Safety Switch light...stays on all the time with or without jumper. The other one is the brake light that remains on even though the brake is not locked. I'll disconnect the heavy gauge wire from what I believe to be the magneto and see if that does anything.

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post-6868-0-13811900-1336311212.jpg

magnetoterminalidentification.gif

I haven't seen this device anywhere under the hood. Here is a photo of something that is connected to the starter by a heavy gauge wire

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