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clarnp49

PTO On/OFF

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clarnp49

Hey Guys,

So far everything has been great with my C-120. Loving this machine but now comes the bad part.

Yesterday I was mowing along fine and then all of the sudden my PTO turns off, I get to a flat area and it kicks back on. If I am going uphill under a little load it runs fun. If I turn and head down hill it turns off.

I have also noticed that if I have the tractor in gear and hear down hill without pushing on the clutch it will start to coast down the hill, it has never done that before, it would always stay the same speed.

Any suggestions for the PTO, runaway tractor? I was thinking it's the drive belt but it's nice and tight. The deck belt and PTO belt through the mule drive is tight and it works great when the PTO kicks on. The problem starts at the PTO pulley.

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nylyon

Well the one thing which they would both have in common would be a sheared key on the PTO side. But I would think that starting in say 3rd, it would be sluggish. With the engine off (spark plug wire disconnected, can't be too careful) see if you can turn the PTO side separate from the flywheel side.

Second, with the PTO, check to be sure that it is tight enough. If not, you will need to adjust it. My 414 recently had the snap ring on the PTO shaft wear out making the PTO not function properly. I replaced the snap ring and back in business.

Hope this helps?

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clarnp49

You said something that would probably help. I will try the other tip you suggested but when starting in 3rd, 2nd it doesn't stand itself up on it's rear. It takes quite a bit to get going in 3rd gear.

I am headed to the garage to test the PTO test you suggested, will report in a minute.

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clarnp49

Ok, checked the PTO setup, everything looks tight, I took it all apart down to the engine shaft. I can't turn that without turning the "crankshaft".

When I put it back together, I didn't tighten the mule drive as tight as I had it before, it makes it better but I noticed checking the deck that it looks uneven. Would this cause a problem?

With the deck disconnected I can stand the tractor up on the rear wheels in 3rd gear but with the deck attached and the belt hooked up it takes a bit to get going. Normal?

Any more suggestions?

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WheelHorse_of_course

Electric or manual PTO?

If electric you have a wiring intermittent.

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clarnp49

It's a manual PTO. Little lever on the right side. I was wondering if the PTO "clutch plate" could be warn enough to cause a slippage?

Is there a key inside the engine for that shaft that might be warn? It's acting like a gyroscope, if the PTO isn't spinning full out and you turn to head up hill, as soon as it "senses" the uphill it kicks in the PTO full out.

This is the weirdest thing I have seen. I hope I am explaining this enough for someone to understand

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Teddy da Bear

I have never seen a condition such as you describe.

But it sounds like it is acting in relationship to "load" like a governor would.

I cannot think of any direct realtionship between the two that would make it so obvious as you describe. Of course the governor is suppose to kick in during load and the engine revs and pulls stronger.....thus the PTO does also.

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.5racer

I would look at the motor mounts as well . Kinda sounds as if they are loose or worn. You said there was a hill involved , would the angle cause the motor to shift to loosen and tighten enough of the belts to slip or disengage ?

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linen beige

I would look at the motor mounts as well . Kinda sounds as if they are loose or worn. You said there was a hill involved , would the angle cause the motor to shift to loosen and tighten enough of the belts to slip or disengage ?

I'm thinking along those same lines. You also say the deck isn't riding level. Sounds like you do indeed have SOMETHING :whistle: bent, loose, or both that is causing the pto belt to loosen uder certain conditions.

That doesn't explain the tendency to "freewheel" going downhill though. But, it could be that when the pto kicks out, the lighter load allows the engine to speed up just enough to make it seem like it is freewheeling. Does it speed up a tad when going uphill and the pto first kicks out? If so, then the drive belt is fine and your problem is in the pto, the pto driven belt, mule drive pulleys, or the deck. You say you didn't tighten the mule drive quiet as much when you put it back together and that made it a little better. Is it possible to tighten one too much and bind the engine/pto? :WRS:

'course the pto clutch could be just worn or oily enough to slip under heavy load. Could also be the first sign of worn pto bearings starting to bind, or allow the pto to wobble on the crank. Check to see if it has any tendency to wobble. That would cause only the front edge of the clutch to contact the bell.

This will probably turn out to be something so simple we'll all go AH HA!, Why didn't I think of that? But it sure is frustrating right now, isn't it?

Keep us posted, you have us intrigued. :D

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clarnp49

There is a lot of questions put out there in the last couple of messages I will try to answer them all.

1. The hill involved is a "normal" hilly yard. A pitch enough to have to hold yourself back in the seat. It also does it on anything angled in the downward direction. Lets use it as an example.

a. Go down the hill with the PTO turned on and running "right" from level ground. The PTO stays running until about 1/2 half down and then the blades slow and then stop. The PTO pulley is still on and spinning but "looks" like it's spinning about half speed.

b. Get to bottom of hill and turn around to mow UP the hill. The PTO engages and the blades turn at full speed and it sounds like an electric PTO was turned on. The engine doesn't change pitch or try to catch up, or rev up in either scenario unless it's the bigger of the hills and then it will rev up to catch up. That works fine.

2. Motor mounts, the motor isn't loose, checked that.

3. With the PTO belt disengaged, no load on the tractor from the PTO the tractor runs great. Like I said I can stand it up on the rear wheels in 3rd gear on level ground if I am not careful.

4. How thick should the "PTO clutch" be? The bearings on the bell housing of the PTO look perfect, greased up nice and it spins true from watching it. If there isn't any belt hooked up and I turn it on and then back off while idling it will spin for 10-15 minutes freewheeling unless I engage it again.

5. Loosing the mule drive helps but doesn't solve the problem. I am wondering if it's a deck problem, level or bent or just not quite right because I have noticed lately that the center blade won't cut worth a damn and the problem started after I put the deck back on last time. The deck seems to float ALOT more then normal when in the raised position and when I set it down the front center roller touches the ground and the other rollers don't touch the ground. The deck is set at the highest position.

If I put in the garage and look straight on with the deck lowered it looks like the "drivers side" is higher then the "passenger side" of the deck. Sorry for the analogy easiest way I could think to describe it. If check the belt tension when it just sits it seems alright. I also have noticed that it will not turn the blades if the belt is in the raised position, it used to! For the 1 foot and higher first pass grass.

Appreciate the help guys. It's frustrating I know but if anyone can fix it, it's you guys!

Everything used to work great and I have noticed the quality of cut getting worse and worse. Everything is greased up as well so there isn't any drag per say on the pulleys on the deck.

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kj4kicks

I'll take a shot since you mentioned that it started after re-installing the deck. When you locked the bar into the tach-a-matic in the mid-mount, was the small fork centered in the second bar? If not, it will allow the deck to "swing" front to back, changing the belt tension, etc. Easiest way to check it is to drop it from that mount, and re-install it.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

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linen beige

What

Eldon

Said!

But when you take it off to remount it, check all the mountings,etc. for anything that may have somehow gotten bent while it was off the last time. Keep us posted.

I'd venture a guess, and I mean guess!, that if you could check the center spindle while the deck is powered it isn't turning as fast as the others. due to the belt being a little loose?

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nylyon

Man, that makes sense, perfect sense.... Hope it's that, very easy fix

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clarnp49

Well I believe you guys might have figured it out. I checked the fork this morning before work and it's pointed almost at the back of the tractor. To tell you the truth I don't think I have ever had it installed correctly from the beginning but the bolts are so tight on that arm that it doesn't allow it to move much.

I just remembered one problem I had when kj4kicks mentioned front to back that I couldn't turn the tractor because the roller was hitting the left wheel, I would push the deck back by adjusting that bar with the fork down a little and it would be ok for awhile.

You learn something new everyday here at Red Square! I won't be able to test this solution for a couple of days but I will get back to you all when I am able by the end of the week.

I really appreciate the help in hopefully solving this absolutely annoying problem. I just hope I haven't broke or damaged anything along the way. It seems as though this is a very solid tractor to start with.

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WheelHorse_of_course

Once you get the deck mounting worked out I would suggest checking the clutch adjustment.

It is supposed to be check periodically. If you don't have the specs let us know and I'll look it up for you.

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Rod(NASNUT)

:WRS: Eldon I would never have come up with that :whistle:

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clarnp49

I haven't gotten this fixed yet because I am out of town but can you send me the specs for the clutch adjustment anyways. I got this tractor from someone else so the more information I know about it the better I will feel and be able to troubleshoot future problems.

Hope the weather is as good as it is here in Atlantic City! Been 85 all day!

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clarnp49

BIG UPDATE!!! Problem solved!

Well where to begin the finale?

1. The deck is bent but a big sledge hammer put the front wheel back down where it was, don't remember hitting anything that hard.

2. The deck mounting arm for the mid mount is a b***h to hang. Is it supposed to be in the single hole or the elongated hole?

3. The grand pupa of making it work!!!!

The PTO arm to turn it all on wasn't tight enough to push the PTO flywheel back to make contact with the clutch plate. I tightened the "nut" 2 turns and put another nut on the end of the arm and a cotterpin on the bottom side and I can't get the deck to stop on 1.5 feet of grass. It just cuts it off so I can bail it up for the goats.

I appreciate all the help guys! It was a simple fix but I wouldn't have been able to figure it out without getting all the other stuff out of the way and finding out when you turn on the PTO and push your foot up against the PTO fywheel it would take off again, that that was the problem.

Add that to the useless information category when someone has a problem like that someday.

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TT

The pin on the lift bar goes in the slotted hole. (so the deck can "float" without binding)

Don't over-tighten the bail adjustment trunnion on the PTO engagement rod or the snap ring will pop out of the groove on the stub shaft. (where the bail pushes on the PTO pulley)

You might want to think about removing the PTO pulley and using a little sandpaper on the friction lining of the clutch disc - especially since it's been slipping a lot lately. Make sure the lining is free of grease too.

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WheelHorse_of_course

Don't over-tighten the bail adjustment trunnion on the PTO engagement rod or the snap ring will pop out of the groove on the stub shaft. (where the bail pushes on the PTO pulley)

I have posted the proper adjustment procedure (adjust in one turn intervals until slipping stops) as well as the PTO brake adjustment.

Right now it is under WH Tractors but I have asked it be moved to the Technical section. :whistle:

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CasualObserver

Looks like a nice response, and an appropriate place for it...

Topic moved. Thanks Rolf! :whistle:

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314 8

I have the same problem. Blades slow way down when mowing down hill. As soon as I'm level or going up hill, motor rpms come up and blades spin fast. Don't see how this should affect the blades spinning but I'll try it.

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