njdpo 1 #1 Posted July 17, 2011 Hi all, I recently picked up a wheel horse Commando 800, and after a little work its running rather well. So I decided to remove the cooling shroud from the motor and inspect the cooling fins expecting them to need a good cleaning Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VinsRJ 721 #2 Posted July 17, 2011 I'm no expert, by any means, but I would start with the head gasket. IMO if the block was cracked that far up the bore you would know about it. Pull the head, clean the top of the valves and piston, as well as, the head and block surface while it there too. :woohoo: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gene_S 93 #3 Posted July 17, 2011 It's either the head gasket like Vince said or the bearing plate on the fly wheel side leaking and the air is blowing it around. The puffs of smoke would definitely say blown head gasket though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunahead72 2,337 #4 Posted July 18, 2011 A very similar problem came up recently here, same engine, check it out. The bottom line for fourwheels0 was a cracked cylinder, but take your time and follow that thread for some other things to look at, and don't jump to any conclusions just yet: http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/index.php?showtopic=27973 Good luck, and , lots of help available here! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
P3x 54 #5 Posted July 18, 2011 A plastic scraper for the high points of carbon folloed by Easy Off oven cleaner and scotch brite works well cleaning carbon deposits. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
njdpo 1 #6 Posted July 18, 2011 Thanks for the feedback guys... I saw that posting tunahead72 responded back with - I hope that's not my case. If it is - I'll likely run the motor till she gives up the ghost as cash is tight at this time. ... Heck cash always seems to be tight last few years ... Anyway - the cover has been pulled and I see there is more to the story than initially told - please see additional photos of the flywheel side of the 8hp Kohler engine. ( http://s247.photobucket.com/albums/gg160/njdpo/WheelHorse/ ) the flywheel bearing area is completely dry - but much more wetness abounds back there in the fin area as well as the valve area... I hope this motor isn't wasted - as the tractor really addresses a lot of my needs. Your advise on my next step greatly appreciated. I'm thinking about gunking it down again and trying to pinpoint the leak further ? YOUR advice greatly appreciated. Thanks again - Dave Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shorts 182 #7 Posted July 18, 2011 once you get the engine clean, brake cleaner is a lot faster at emoving oil to see what where itis leaking, a quick spray and it evaporates almost instantly just don't use it while the engine is running or the fan could blow it into your ees :woohoo: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
njdpo 1 #8 Posted July 18, 2011 I've got the engine cleaned up and dry - and I have the shroud back on. I'll try and get some seat time on the machine to see if I can find the leak. The trouble is getting that shroud on and off and I dont want to run the engine too long - particularly with the shroud off in this 85-90 degree heat were having. My dilemma is : [ I dont want to run the motor too long as I wont be able to trace the leak from a big puddle... and running it for a short time means I've just removed the shroud once more for inspection (for nothing). Not really a big deal but its 15 minutes wasted for an inspection. One other thing - the motor was a little overfull on oil - about a 16/th on an inch over the top mark on the dipstick (which was measured by cleaning the stick - and simply placing the dipstick on top of the block - not screwing it in ... (according to the manual). Any thoughts on the matter greatly appreciated. Other than that I'll keep the group posted. Thanks all - Dave Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunahead72 2,337 #9 Posted July 18, 2011 One other thing - the motor was a little overfull on oil - about a 16/th on an inch over the top mark on the dipstick (which was measured by cleaning the stick - and simply placing the dipstick on top of the block - not screwing it in ... (according to the manual). I wouldn't normally be concerned about being 1/16" over the full mark on your dipstick, but you've already lost some oil while you were mowing and investigating your leaks, so you may have been a good bit over full to begin with. Have you changed the oil since you got this machine? Is it possible you simply overfilled it? That wouldn't explain the amount of oil you're seeing around the head and the fins, but it might give you a clue as to how serious your problem might be. You might consider just torquing the head bolts properly to see if that changes anything. The head bolts on a K181 should be torqued to 15-20 ft.-lbs., in a specific sequence that's shown in the service manual; if you don't have that manual, you can get a free download from the Kohler web site. I haven't looked at a K181 in a while, you may have to remove just one section of the shroud to get to all the bolts (there should be 7)? :woohoo: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Horse'n Around 22 #10 Posted July 19, 2011 The 653 that I got a few months ago had the same problem with the wet fins and puffs of white smoke. The PO replaced the Tecky with a K161S. Anyway the problem turned out to be the head gasket. The PO replaced the original head because the head had the two 1/4-20 bolts broken off that retain the tin on the head. When I removed the head, the gasket he used could'nt have been OEM it was cheaply made and it didn't look like an OEM Kohler gasket. I installed a new OEM gasket and I replaced the head bolts just to be safe and its been fine ever since. No more popping back,wetness or puffs of smoke. She runs like a dream now I hope that yours turns out to be as easy a fix as mine John Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
njdpo 1 #11 Posted July 19, 2011 Hi guys I did change out the oil shortly after I got the tractor into service... It was dirty but not too far gone to the point where it looked neglected. and it was a bit low on oil... I did overfill the engine with oil - and shortly after discovered this and drained off a bit leaving it about 1/16 over the full line. Based on my initial inspection and cleaning of the engine - this leak has been around for a while as the fins on the flywheel side of the head were completely clogged (and oily) before I actually changed the oil... So Im fairly certain none of what Im seeing - is my doing. I intend to run the tractor for 20 minutes and see if I can find the leak later on this evening - and then take it from there... I was told by a local to re-torque the head bolts as well... I just removed the top-side shroud from the engine - it was a lot easier than I has initially thought - so I will check the torque specs on the head today. After gunking / cleaning the head a second time yesterday - I saw the head gasket was *very* shiny and new looking. Which struck me as odd since Im working on a machine that's nearly 40 yrs old. I would think 40 years of service would have that gasket looking .... well... 40 years old... So yeah - Im thinking the head gasket needs some attention... My question to the group is this... Since this is a flat head engine - and no oil makes its way up top... how is there oil leaking from the head gasket area ? Im also noticing that the area around the valves (under the shroud - the pocket area which has no fins) is also rather wet... This area is kinda hard to inspect as its hidden behind the fuel pump... Is there something I could/should be looking at ? (Sorry Im not real familiar with these older K-series engines). Is there some type of valve access panel behind that pump ? UPDATES : - after closer inspection I do see a panel in back of the pump... I will also keep a lookout for a leak there. - I had the 800 out for about 25 minutes - I'll let her cool down and have a look around for the leak(s) a little later. Man that little 181 engine runs so strong - I hope it aint serious... or seriously expensive to resolve this issue. - also while out there I noticed that there was NO smoke coming from the engine / muffler (that I could see). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunahead72 2,337 #12 Posted July 19, 2011 If I have to remove it - Im inclined to just replace the gasket, inspect/clean the piston/head for carbon and just do it once... An excellent idea, check out this link for one man's suggestions on the process, this should answer some of your questions: http://www.wheelhorseforum.com/index.php?showtopic=20507 I wouldn't be too concerned about the new-looking gasket, it may have been replaced more than once over the last 40 years. A lot of guys (like me) make this a routine part of their annual spring maintenance. And as good as it looks, I personally wouldn't re-use the old gasket. Once you remove a head gasket, it's highly unlikely that you'll be able to put it back in EXACTLY the same location, and highly likely you'll still have leaks there when you're done (just my 2 cents). Im also noticing that the area around the valves (which has no fins) is also rather wet... This area is kinda hard to inspect as its hidden behind the fuel pump... Is there something I could/should be looking at ? (Sorry Im not real familiar with these older K-series engines). Is there some type of valve access panel behind that pump ? The wet area around the valves could mean something, but it's a more involved process to take care of any problems there. There's a crankcase breather behind the carburetor, check for leaks around the edge of the cover plate -- a little seepage there is probably fine, anything else will require attention. That breather assembly also hides the valves, so if you need to start taking it apart, that will also be a good time to inspect the valves and check the clearances. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
njdpo 1 #13 Posted July 19, 2011 Well - i pulled the shrouds off and to my disappointment I see oil coming from the area of the 4th cooling fin. ALSO - as I look closely I also see a bit of oil up near the head gasket as well. Im getting that sinking feeling in my stomach... I have posted 3 new photos (labelled AFTER CLEANUP) at http://s247.photobucket.com/albums/gg160/njdpo/WheelHorse/ The 3 pics show approximate areas where the oil is coming from. I suspect that at one time - someone may have gone in and replaced the head gasket assuming the machine needed a head gasket with the leakage that was going on... perhaps thats why I see one that appears to be new. (cant really be sure). I didnt pay anything for the tractor - so I wasn't taken advantage of. The problem Im having is that little Commando 800 has grown on me - to the point where I was interested in finding a mower deck (in better condition than mine today) for it. its a bit too hot to go out there and work the issue right now - but any thoughts, advice and prayers are greatly appreciated. UPDATE: I've once again cleaned / dried the wet spots (with brake cleaner) to attempt another 10-12 minute run later today... the last 25 minute run was a bit too long and left wet spots a bit too large for me to pinpoint the exact location of the leak(s)... I do sense the gasket is not my problem here - but I am no pro at any of this and hoping im wrong... ( my wife frequently reminds me I'm wrong... This time - I hope she right.) Im running the motor with only the big fly wheel shroud on it - the side shrouds are off the motor saving me some time for quicker inspections. I think if this motor is really cracked - I will probably inspect and clean it yearly - and run it until death do us part. Finances permit simple and sensible repairs (like gaskets) but NOT replacements of short block or complete engine assemblies. will keep you posted as things develop... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shorts 182 #14 Posted July 19, 2011 the pictures do not look promising, check with your local machine shop about installing a sleeve and boring back to stock, back in the day with industrial engines it was more economical after multiple bore and rebuilds to overbore and sleeve a block than to replace it. the cost savings is that you are going back to the stock bore so a standard piston fits. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
njdpo 1 #15 Posted July 19, 2011 Status report... Ok did about a 10 minute run in the high heat about 20 minutes ago and pulled the shroud. Head gasket is clearly in need of replacement - whole area wet directly under the flywheel side of the head was very wet. and there was a small wet spot on fin #4 (fly wheel side as well) ... BUT I have a question which your answers may help put this case to rest. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- located in the cooling fins the fly wheel side of a K181 - there is a square block which is cast into the cooling fins. Initially I thought that block was where one of the head bolts extended into - I later determined that a head bolt does NOT go into that square block - but is to the LEFT of that square block. My eyes are not what they were but it looks like that head bolt to the left of the square block was drilled out to the point where it left a hole in the bottom of cooling fin #3 !!! There seems to be a hole on the bottom side of fin #3 - the top side of fin #3 is the beefed up casting where the bolt is passing through... If this is the case - then that could explain why I have some dampness on the top side of fin #4 as the bottom of fin #3 is leaking on it... Are my eyes deceiving me ? Do any of you recall the hole passing all the way through fin # 3 ??? No doubt I will find out when I pull the head and replace the gasket ... I'm probably gonna go through that sanding procedure for the cyl head - that I saw earlier in this thread. In the other posting where he had a cracked cylinder, he did not mention if the machine ran well.. I wonder how that motor ran ... He opened the thread with oil on the fins - but did not mention if the motor was strong, or noisey, etc.... oh well. keep ya posted. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
njdpo 1 #16 Posted July 20, 2011 Hi all, 4 new pics posted at http://s247.photobucket.com/albums/gg160/njdpo/WheelHorse/ the head is off and there was a BOAT LOAD of carbon deposits on the piston, valves, head, and even the cylinder walls. The cylinder wall was so bad that it actually eroded the top of the piston closest to the valves ... The actual cylinder walls appear to be in nice shape - so im not real concerned with that. I would think a new piston should be installed in the future... but right now - lets see if I can get past the oil leaks. The other posting (where he has a cracked cylinder) shows a hair liine crack in the cylinder wall - I do NOT see anything like that on my engine... (fingers crossed). Im heading out to get a gasket and put things back together... will keep you posted. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
can whlvr 991 #17 Posted July 21, 2011 if funds are low (and i know that feeling)then i would do exactly what you are doing,clean up the carbon,put a new gasket on,torque it down,run for 15-20 min and retorque,keep your eye on the oil level and run her,if she doesnt appear to be cracked from inside and she runs good,drive her Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldredrider 2,547 #18 Posted July 21, 2011 In the other posting where he had a cracked cylinder, he did not mention if the machine ran well.. I wonder how that motor ran ... He opened the thread with oil on the fins - but did not mention if the motor was strong, or noisey, etc.... oh well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WH nut 553 #19 Posted July 21, 2011 For about 75 bucks you can get a complete, strens kit and have her running good in no time. If the bore looks ok and you are trying to get by cheap jst measure your piston to comfirm the size and run with it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
njdpo 1 #20 Posted July 21, 2011 You guys have been very helpful. The gasket has been installed and I am using never seize on the well cleaned head bolts. My first test run was for about 10 minutes and the motor ran just fine (as expected). seems to run a bit better now that its cleaned up. I saw another wet spot on fin 4 this afternoon and I applied liberal amounts of brake cleaner to dry that area up before tomorrows run... Tomorrow I have some things to do in the AM - but once I return I will re-torque the head and do a 10 min. run on the little 181 and see where I'm at. I suspect that I'm gonna see that wet spot on Fin #4 again and if I do - well ... Like I said I'll baby her till death do us part or till I find a good donor short block. (fingers crossed). Just keep those those fins clean/unclogged once a year to avoid severe heat build up. I WONDER - What about brazing that area up ? Do you guys think that might be a viable option... I'm fairly certain JB Weld would not work well here... I might give it a shot but I wouldnt expect it to be a long term solution... Dave. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
njdpo 1 #21 Posted July 22, 2011 Hi all, Well the motor has been torqued and run twice now, and run for a second time. Its a bit premature to say im out of the dark - but I did have the tractor mowing the lawn AND towing a big block Chrysler motor in a cart behind it for about 30 minutes earlier. Went into the shroud expecting bad news and didnt see a drop of oil anywhere... What I did see was kinda new was that the engine itself - from the muffler was blowing a bit of blue smoke (which I'm not terribly concerned about (or surprised). Because of the slight blue smoke im seeing - I'm suspecting that the piston (and rings) are rather worn (see pictures of the piston crown which is eroded badly by the carbon buildup of on the cylinder wall closest to the valves). If --- I was actually able to resolve the oil leak - I will start looking around for a rebuild kit for this motor (winter project I guess)... and a mower deck. Thanks Dave Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KB9LOR 4 #22 Posted July 22, 2011 Hi all, Well the motor has been torqued and run twice now, and run for a second time. Its a bit premature to say im out of the dark - but I did have the tractor mowing the lawn AND towing a big block Chrysler motor in a cart behind it for about 30 minutes earlier. Went into the shroud expecting bad news and didnt see a drop of oil anywhere... What I did see was kinda new was that the engine itself - from the muffler was blowing a bit of blue smoke (which I'm not terribly concerned about (or surprised). Because of the slight blue smoke im seeing - I'm suspecting that the piston (and rings) are rather worn (see pictures of the piston crown which is eroded badly by the carbon buildup of on the cylinder wall closest to the valves). If --- I was actually able to resolve the oil leak - I will start looking around for a rebuild kit for this motor (winter project I guess)... and a mower deck. Thanks Dave I have a c-81 parts tractor with a k181s, IF you need a block PM me...and IF you decide to rebuild it PM on a rebuild kit, I can put you one together cheaper than anyone. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
njdpo 1 #23 Posted July 25, 2011 Hi all, Well its been a few days since I had the motor buttoned back up. I've torqued the head twice now and I have several good runs on the little K181S... I pulled the shroud off (today) and the engine is completely dry. (good news - I really couldn't afford any bad news). I will say that - I was quite surprised about how the cyl head was not flat when I went ahead and tried to resurface the head on a sandpaper / sheet of glass combo. I think that was very valuable information and an important step in getting this motor dried up. So on to trying to find a deck for the Commando 800 now. Thanks for all your help everyone. Dave Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunahead72 2,337 #24 Posted July 25, 2011 Dave, That's excellent news, it's a great feeling when things come together like that, plus you've learned a lot about your own personal machine in the process. Nice job! The fact that your head wasn't flat probably also means you were losing a little compression/power as well. I'm curious, how bad was it? And were you able to get it back into spec? Still thinking about a rebuild this winter? Good luck finding a deck! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
njdpo 1 #25 Posted July 27, 2011 Hi Tunahead, Yes I am considering a rebuild of the 181 in the winter - funds permitting. I was telling someone else I need to get a mower deck for the tractor and I would really like to find a snow blower for the machine as well... If I get the snow blower (or a blade) for snow removal - I want to make sure the tractor is available for snow removal and not out of service because the motor is apart for a rebuild. (so perhaps a rebuild in the late fall / early spring... I'll just have to see - what the powers of be - have in store for me. Fingers crossed ... Dave Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
