Oil leak help.

[mailman 1]

I have a leak coming from behind my pto assembly. I removed most of it but the last part. Do these four bolts hold it on? And what do you think might cure the leak? Is there a gasket or some kind of seal behind it? I'm sorry , I am a novice at this.

[mailman 1]

Ok, I got that off. now it looks like the belt pulley needs to come off. Is it held on by just a set screw?

Also, it looks as though there has been some rubbing on the belt guard.

[TT-(Moderator) 1,127]

Behind the PTO clutch disc you will find the tractor drive pulley which is held to the crankshaft by two setscrews. (You'll probably have to remove the drive belt from the pulley.) Once the engine pulley is off of the crankshaft, you'll find a lip type oil seal located in the engine block. That's undoubtedly the source of the oil leak.

They are available from Kohler under P/N X-583-2-S for less than $5.

You'll have to carefully use a small bent pick or equivalent to extract the old seal. Polish the seal surface of the crankshaft (use very fine sandpaper), wipe it clean, and coat it with oil or light grease before installing the new seal. Use a piece of pipe, etc. to "drive" the new seal in flush or just below the block surface. (not more than 1/16")

[mailman 1]

Thanks TT. I see now that there are two set screws. I got one backed out, the other, as murphey's law would have it, is tighter than a lid on a ten year old Vermont maple syrup can. I'm afraid I might snap it. I got some wd-40 in it now. will try it later. I need to get some PB Blaster.

[mailman 1]

Ok, I got the second setscrew out, but it appears that the drive pulley had attempted to be removed before. If you look closely at the pics you'll see that it has been broken in a couple places. This thing is also tightly set on the shaft. Do I need some kind of puller to remove this? Any tips on how to pull this thing off?

[TT-(Moderator) 1,127]

If you have long enough fully threaded bolts, you could try threading them through the 1/4 - 20 holes for the clutch disc bolts and use them to push against the engine block. That would only work if the holes are completely through the pulley - which most of them I've seen are. If the pulley is extremely tight, this will not work. Yours looks pretty "fresh" yet, so it might work.

The only other way to get it off the crankshaft without damaging it more than it already is would be to get two 6" long pieces of 1/4" threaded rod and make a puller. Use a flat piece of steel that is at least 1/4" thick and drill two holes to match two opposite holes in the pulley. (use the clutch disc as a pattern) Screw the threaded rod in to the pulley at least 1/2", slip the piece of steel over the ends and against the end of the crank. Put a flat washer and a nut on each "studs" and alternately tighten to remove the pulley.

[kj4kicks 151]

Hi Eric, Yes, you will need a puller for that, Just went through that myself :whistle:

[TT-(Moderator) 1,127]

Did you use a gear puller, Eldon?

I always break cast pullies with those. :whistle:

[mailman 1]

Yep, TT, the bolts go through to the block. Now I just need to find some long threaded bolts. I don't have a puller. This engine is only about 2 years old, per po, so maybe it will work.

[kj4kicks 151]

I didn't use a 3 jaw puller, I always break stuff with those, too. I used a flat (axle type) puller with the bolts that thread into the pulley, like you described.

[Curmudgeon 28]

I use an elcheapo harmonic balancer puller available from almost any elcheapo tool store.

Question though, it seems to me that's the pulley were I've found a second setscrew below the first a couple of times. I could be wrong, maybe it was another pulley somewhere on a Horse that I've found those. So now whenever I remove ANY pulley, I totally remove the setscrew and make sure there isn't another one down in there before I break something trying to pull it off.

[mailman 1]

Hey Dale, those harmonic balancers ARE cheap, (price wise, anyways). I will try using the bolts against the block method first, (way cheap).

[Jim_M 178]

Hey Dale, those harmonic balancers ARE cheap, (price wise, anyways). I will try using the bolts against the block method first, (way cheap).

Just be careful not to punch a hole in the block.

[linen beige 14]

Just be careful not to punch a jole in the block.

Mailman,

Not only would I be worried about punching a hole in the block( cast iron is STRONG, but localized stress can crack it easily), that method puts a side stress on the main bearings and they aren't designed for it. One very small flat spot on a ball or in a race and a teardown/rebuild will be in order. If you use the flat piece of steel/ two bolt method, make sure you aren't pulling more on one side than the other, and alternately tighten the bolts no more than 1/8 turn at a time. That will keep the bore of the pulley from binding even more tightly to the shaft. I think the harmonic balancer puller is the way to go, what is needed is a STRAIGHT OUT pull, with minimal side to side movement. Many auto parts stores will loan you one for only a refundable deposit.

Oh, and if you reuse this pulley, take a small file and round over the edges of the chipped out areas so they won't chew up your belt.

[TT-(Moderator) 1,127]

Point of clarification: (which I apparently have to do a lot of recently )

A K-181 block is about 5/8" thick in the area of where the bolts will be pushing.

There are many different variations in the strengthehing rib patterns on the sides of the 141/161/181 engines, but they are all located close enough to the push point that the bolts could aligned to push on them - not the thinner web between them.

If fully-threaded bolts are used, the majority are grade 2 - which will undoubtedly shear off long before they puncture the engine block. The engine on Eric's tractor was recently replaced, so I would guess that the pulley is not rusted to the crankshaft like it could be if it were the original engine and it had been together for 30-plus years. It's probably hung up on the key more than anything, and shouldn't take much effort for it to move.

As far as the "side load" load on the main bearings is concerned..... the over-center PTO clutch engagement design on these tractors exert a constant lateral force on the flywheel side bearing the entire time the PTO is engaged. When performing PTO clutch adjustments, the engine is normally not running, so I really doubt flat spots would be an issue.

I would not have recommended this procedure if I had not previously used it myself. I do know better than to try it on a pulley that hasn't been off the crankshaft in a while.

And just for the record.... this is also a good way to remove the thrust bearing from a GT-2500 / C-111 / GT-1100 & 1142 engine pulley.

[linen beige 14]

Guess I need to clarify, but first, GREAT PICS! That reminds me, Mailman, if your block has any paint in the opening where the seal goes, scrape it out before you install the new seal.

The point I was trying to make is that if the use of a harmonic balancer puller is the method least likely to cause further damage, then that is the way to go. The lateral force exerted on the bearings by the pto is not the same as the peening effect that the crank COULD have if the pulley gave way suddenly while force was being applied. No one amongst us can engage a pto lever fast enough to do that. In a newer engine there SHOULDN'T be enough side to side end play for this to be an issue, and the chance that this could be damaging is virtually nil, but why take any chance when there is a method that eliminates it? I'm sure that you have seen more than one bearing/race that has been damaged by a crank end strike, and have probably heard the old "I really didn't hit it that hard, more like a light tap.".

[glenn27 64]

The only addition I use on the oil seal installation , to what others have posted, is when it's almost to the face of the block--and ready for the final 'tap' -I smear a film of RTV silicone around the outside diameter of the seal--that would take up any difference in the hole casting diameter...

Other than that--seems like someone has put their share of seals in-- :whistle:

[TT-(Moderator) 1,127]

I'll definitely agree with you on that, Glenn.

The machined seal bore in the Kohlers and the rubber-clad OEM seals rarely require additional sealant, but there are many cases when it never hurt to give them a little help. :whistle:

[Curmudgeon 28]

Hmmmm, if the pulley suddenly gave way, how could that peen the bearing? The move would be away from the load being placed on the bearing, not into it. Unless we are talking jumping clear across and hitting the opposite side of the bearing? Just trying to get a grasp on what's being said.

Personally, I like my $5 puller. Cheap and safe way to go. LOL

[linen beige 14]

By putting pressure on the block, you are pulling pulley and crank. The slight amount of end play in the crank can let the crank recoil if the pulley broke loose suddenly. I know the risk is miniscule, and a new engine shouldn't have anywhere near enough end play to cause this, but I've seen some very strange things happen to cast metals when exposed to sudden shock. Therefore, I suggested not risking it.

[Curmudgeon 28]

I'm no engineer, but I'd say minuscule is an exaggeration. Do you really think the crank is going to "fly back" so fast, with so much force as to flatten the balls or races? Well, obviously you do or you wouldn't have said it! LOL

I'll stand by my $5 puller and not have to worry about it.

I'll say this though. Go ahead boys, cringe. I've smacked those things with a hammer and never made any flat spots, and I KNOW that was a shot to them! LOL

[linen beige 14]

I'll stand by my $5 puller and not have to worry about it.

I've smacked those things with a hammer and never made any flat spots, and I KNOW that was a shot to them! LOL

Dale;

Use of the $5 puller is exactly what I was encouraging, because it only puts pressure on the crank and the pulley. It is not pulling the crank into the bearing and the bearing into the block, hoping the pulley works loose before anything else does.

I've beat the doggy doo out of more than a couple myself, and didn't seem to hurt them. Even bent a briggs at the crank pin and straightened it back out, same engine twice, runs fine. I've struck loose bearing balls with a small sledge and marveled at how hard they can be to dent. On one, an HH-100, I finally found that extra set screw you mentioned earlier. :imstupid: Knock off type flywheel pullers do just exactly the same thing, as do slide hammers. But I've also seen more than a couple with a grooved race that looked to have been caused by a ball with as little as .002-.003 inch distortion. As I'm sure you know, if a race gets a groove, it loosens up the bearing and won't hold together much longer. And though most had signs of other abuse, and I realize the distortion may have been a factory defect, every one of them had evidence of a crank strike to the pto end of the shaft. I know these aren't aicraft engines by any stretch, but if an aircraft engine shows ANY sign of a crank strike, it BY LAW has to be diassembled, inspected, and repaired before it can be used again. Because the strike MAY have caused damage to internal parts including bearings.

The point is, when you have a choice of different ways to do a job, choose the one that has the least potential for damage, no matter how (here's that word again.) miniscule that chance is.

[linen beige 14]

Something obvious just dawned on me. All the damaged bearings I spoke of had slightly warped ball cages. A bent cage may have caused the wearing of a flat spot on a ball, which led to the groove. Since the cage is the weakest part of the bearing, I guess it stands to reason that's what got bent first. :whistle:

[Curmudgeon 28]

Bottom line, right tool for the job? LOL

Few of us have all the proper tools, as many are expensive, but harmonic balancers pullers come very cheap and everyone should have one of these. I've used the crap out of mine (get creative, you can do a LOT of things with it) but have never, EVER pulled a harmonic balancer with it!

[sorekiwi 761]

Harbor Freight sells a steering wheel puller that is really useful too. I bought mine on sale for about $7. I've used it to pull stubborn hubs off axles as well